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D&D 5E What's wrong with this psion?

So I have a question.

If the Psionic Soul Sorcerer is all that's needed to have a Psion in your game -

Then does that mean the Divine Soul Sorcerer should be considered the default, with no Cleric class at all?

Are people who enjoy the Cleric just spoiled, and should instead just be content with the Divine Soul Sorcerer?

Because right now, I see no reason why the Cleric should exist if everyone's arguments for why there is no Psion are to be taken seriously.
 

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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
No, that had an interestingly different set of problems, but basically was doomed from before it was ever published, because of WotC's self-imposed "70% approval" requirement for UA'd 5E content*. The Mystic also had some design issues, but the main thing was, it could have been literally the best-implemented psionics in D&D history, but it would never have hit 70% because more than 30% of D&D players who answer surveys either:

A) Just don't like psionics (for varied reasons).

or

B) See a UA as an opportunity to "hold out" for their preferred take on psionics.

(I confess to being in the latter category early on - though I liked the Mystic and just thought it needed paring down and about 3-5 powers needed serious nerfs/deletions - literally every "Mystic is OP" claim relied on exploiting those.)



When were psionics in the NEXT playtest? I thought I had all the playtests that got publicly released and none of them have psionics in AFAIK. Am I missing one? Or was it in some private playtest? If it was private-era, that seemed to largely be paleo-D&D-players in terms of groups selected, and I doubt any psionics system would have met with even 50% approval from them, no matter how good. Can you PM it to me if it's from a private one? I'd love to see their early thinking. Further, even the open playtests, whilst interesting, were deeply unrepresentative of the audience 5E now has, being far more grog-y and WotC reacted to even them pretty strangely too - the more interesting Sorcerer design they had seemed to be extremely popular (to judge by all the forum discussion), but they inexplicably ditched it favour of a much more 3E-esque approach. Anyway, the same point applies - if you make psionics part of a "popularity" contest, it gets ripped apart between the anti-psionics crowd and the people holding out for the precise version they want. The "hold out" group didn't realize this would result in "no version" I think - that's something new to 5E - in literally all other editions TSR/WotC just decided on a system, so no-one was initially afraid they wouldn't get psionics at all.

By the way, if you read my post carefully, you'd have seen I was implying that if, instead of going with a UA, they'd just published the Mystic (or preferably a cut-down version of it) as an official class back in 2017, it'd be popular by now. That's my point. Yeah, the "no psionics ever" crowd might dislike it, but there are plenty of people who ban plenty of "core" classes/races from their home games. But the large audience of newer players would likely have enjoyed it a lot, had they just been told "this is what's happening", I'd suggest (jmho ofc).



No, you're not understanding the issue. You can't demand that a psionics system have 70% approval via a UA. Period. It won't happen. I very much doubt that 5E's spell-slot system (which is a big change from 3E and 2E and so on) would have even got 70% approval had it been presented as a UA. Certainly no existing full-caster class would have - they'd literally all be dismissed as "overpowered" or even "broken". Warlocks would be dismissed as "overcomplicated" and "unnecessary".

The only way to make a popular take on psionics is to come in early, and lay down a system you have faith in, then wait for players to see that it is good.



No. I don't know why you're saying this, but it doesn't follow from what I'm saying, and makes zero sense.

It's particularly bizarre because you then refer positively to the Mystic. A cut-down version of the Mystic is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about. There's nothing "intricate" or "complex" about the Mystic, which is what people were claiming pro-psionics people wanted.



No, they cannot. They'll run out of juice extremely quickly, and before they run out of spells (esp. when you remember cantrips exist). Why even say something that's obviously not true?


* = This whole "rule" is made a mockery of because if you have content that isn't UA'd, no matter how junk it is, it can go in. They've even taken out UA/playtest content that was approved of, and replaced it with un-UA'd/un-playtested content (c.f. Marks in Eberron). So it's certainly no golden rule or something that has to be followed.
I think that there is no "no psionics ever" crowd, at least in any size that makes a difference. I don't recall seeing anyone on ENW, for instance, that was anti-psionics to the point of intentionally tanking it. Ambivalent, perhaps. I say more people that wanted psionics but hated the various UA attempts and said they were going to spike it because it wasn't psionics to them. A few of the people that liked your comment specifically did this in the last UA. There's pretty much no evidence that there's a dedicated anti-psionics movement of any impactful size. It's all been your second category the entire time. Even for the less enthusiastic crowd, they get a say if they don't like the mechanics presented, even if psionics isn't something they're strongly for. Your argument boils down to blaming WotC for not putting out something you like in spite of other people's opinions. I don't think that's a particularly strong argument.

The reality is that your group B was the biggest problem. You say that the psionics wanting people wanted the Mystic, but you also said that you downvoted it in the surveys as part of group B. I thought the Mystic was a mess, thematically, but didn't mind the mechanics in general. I didn't respond to that survey, or any survey except the last, because psionics didn't interest me that much with what they were presenting -- I just didn't care. I liked the last one, with the psi-die, but I'm guessing you probably responded negatively to that one, again, as part of group B. I say that because I haven't seen you complain that the last UA wasn't accepted, just earlier versions, and because you've described WotC's approach as half-arsed and late in the game. Am I wrong, or did you group B the psi-die mechanics? If you did, then you're kinda losing any leg to stand on with the argument that it was all the other people that prevented psionics from being a thing and why we now have spell-slot psionics. I get you wanted what you wanted and the psi-die wasn't it, but you can't both hold the opinion that not-your-psionics was bad and that other people are wrong for not wanting your psionics. If you're going to pick up the right to downvote psionics you don't like, then you lose the high ground in calling out other people that did the same when you didn't want them to.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Which group had a higher headcount....

The number of 5e players who were neutral or positive towards a discrete psionics system.

The number of 5e players who were neutral or positive towards a Ravnica campaign setting.


Which made it to print?
Don't know and the latter. Do you have different data that shows the answer to your first question? Because, given the answer to your second and just how data-driven WotC is with products, I'd bet the answer to your first was Ravnica, by a large margin. It's a popular seller, and doing quite well.
 

JiffyPopTart

Bree-Yark
Don't know and the latter. Do you have different data that shows the answer to your first question? Because, given the answer to your second and just how data-driven WotC is with products, I'd bet the answer to your first was Ravnica, by a large margin. It's a popular seller, and doing quite well.
I have no data, even circumstantial, about the number of people that are neutral towards either product. I do know that I have never seen a thread on ENWorld prior to Ravnica being released complaining about the lack of a Ravnica setting or giving ideas on what should be in a Ravnica setting. I have seen a few threads talking about an imagined Magic the Gathering setting and what it would be like. I even recall seeing some MtG user made content in the 3e days posted for downloading here at ENWorld. Those were mostly referring to the "generic" or base setting of magic (I think thats called Dominara???) and not Ravnica.

Conversely, I have seen a hotly debated thread about Psions and the lack thereof in 5e pretty much always on the stove and being discussed at ENWorld since the release of the 5th edition PHB. There are currently two different ones with heavy traffic right now, and the Psion debate wars have actually cooled down somewhat from when there was a flurry of playtest materials being dropped. There is no traffic discussing Ravnica and I haven't seen a highly discussed Ravnica thread floating around in 2020.

From my post earlier (maybe this thread, maybe the other psion thread) Ravnica is currently sitting at 12/24 in popularity by ratings on Amazon. As stated in that post this is the best data I can access to attempt to rank all the D&D released into some sort of Overall Sales order and make no claims my rankings are the actual sales rankings.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I have no data, even circumstantial, about the number of people that are neutral towards either product. I do know that I have never seen a thread on ENWorld prior to Ravnica being released complaining about the lack of a Ravnica setting or giving ideas on what should be in a Ravnica setting. I have seen a few threads talking about an imagined Magic the Gathering setting and what it would be like. I even recall seeing some MtG user made content in the 3e days posted for downloading here at ENWorld. Those were mostly referring to the "generic" or base setting of magic (I think thats called Dominara???) and not Ravnica.

Conversely, I have seen a hotly debated thread about Psions and the lack thereof in 5e pretty much always on the stove and being discussed at ENWorld since the release of the 5th edition PHB. There are currently two different ones with heavy traffic right now, and the Psion debate wars have actually cooled down somewhat from when there was a flurry of playtest materials being dropped. There is no traffic discussing Ravnica and I haven't seen a highly discussed Ravnica thread floating around in 2020.

From my post earlier (maybe this thread, maybe the other psion thread) Ravnica is currently sitting at 12/24 in popularity by ratings on Amazon. As stated in that post this is the best data I can access to attempt to rank all the D&D released into some sort of Overall Sales order and make no claims my rankings are the actual sales rankings.
Mistaking ENW for the larger market is easy to do, but pretty incorrect. The people who post here are the self-selected lot that enjoy arguing pretend elf games on the internet. ENW focuses more on rulesets than settings. And, this forum skews significantly older than the general market. ENW isn't very representative of the general D&D market. What you can do is look at the overall sales for books, and Ravnica is doing pretty well. If there was no market, that wouldn't be close to the case.
 

Mecheon

Sacabambaspis
But maaaaybe, and just hear me out here... we are coming to a point where Psionics just aren't that popular anymore? Could be that in 6e or 7e, there just isn't even this discussion? Who knows. Seems like such a small group of us want or need them in D&D for it to feel right, and then an even smaller group(s) that even agree with one another.
Looking at outside of here stuff, the Psion certainly has a following. Its something folks are always going to want ans has the history. The problem is implementation this time around and that's a lot harder of a barrier to get around

(I gotta be honest I just moved to Kibble's psion and haven't looked back. Its his second most popular class off what I'm seeing, after the artificer)
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
D&D is a sci-fi game. See: Expedition to Barrier Peaks, Tale of the Comet.
You can also point to Glantri and the space ship beneath it. However, those are exceptions and not the rule. D&D is a fantasy game that has had some very rare sci-fi sprinkled in.

Good to see you back by the way! :)
 

Blackmoore, one of the first DnD settings, was a post-apocalyptic world with super futuristic technology and in the past, waiting to be uncovered. Gygax ran DnD games where players visited the old west and spaceships.

At some point, we had a weird phenomenon where some people wanted "pure" DnD that, super ironically, cut out all of the sci-fi elements that were baked into the soul of DnD. Having a weird power source that's vaguely sci-fi, existing the sidelines of the core world is the most DnD thing you could include in the game.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Blackmoore, one of the first DnD settings, was a post-apocalyptic world with super futuristic technology and in the past, waiting to be uncovered. Gygax ran DnD games where players visited the old west and spaceships.

At some point, we had a weird phenomenon where some people wanted "pure" DnD that, super ironically, cut out all of the sci-fi elements that were baked into the soul of DnD. Having a weird power source that's vaguely sci-fi, existing the sidelines of the core world is the most DnD thing you could include in the game.
That point was prior to 1e. In 1e Gygax included those as options for the DM. He includes them as recommendations for other planes, but they don't exist as other planes by default.
 

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