D&D 5E 20th level Sorcerer vs the world

[JiffyPopTart]

Ahh, how could we have overlooked the foolproof strategy of Twin Subtle Quicken Empowered Wish cast 5 times a day to control any creature you want? All while never getting hit once? Foolish of us!

Its easy to do when you only make one Stealth check ever at the beginning of the day (pumped up by 300 other temporary spells and powers) and then keep using that one number forever* versus passive perception checks because you "never became known".

*Edit: Including when hovering above the battlefield on pegasusback.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Its easy to do when you only make one Stealth check ever at the beginning of the day (pumped up by 300 other temporary spells and powers) and then keep using that one number forever* versus passive perception checks because you "never became known".

*Edit: Including when hovering above the battlefield on pegasusback.

See, I handle this kind of thing in my game by only asking for a check when there's a chance you could be discovered.

"I sneak out into the world hunting wizards!"

"Ok."

"I roll a 80 gazillion stealth check!"

"Ok, doesn't count, but you're welcome to roll for your own entertainment."

"I sneak up on the wizard and ambush him!"

"Cool, roll a Stealth check to see how successful you are*."

*This assumes that hiding is possible in the situation.

I tell you what, this nicely eliminates the "but I have guidance, and bardic inspiration, and cast Empower Ability, and used my class ability!" because the answer is then, "okay you start doing that, but it takes your action and you can't attempt to hide from the wizard until you finish them. The wizard notices you."

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

On intiative and hidden attackers...

Banal strawman example aside, how 5e works is like this:

You seem spot on. I'd usually describe the situation to the Alert character as being incredibly aware of his environment. For exemple, if the ambush is taking place in a wood and the attackers are hidden behind bushes, I'd say "Roll initiative". If the Alert character wins, I'd go "While walking through the forest, you suddenly notice something is amiss... The usual song of the birds that accompanied you so far has come to an abrupt stop. Yet, no predator is to be seen, you see, hear and smell nothing that should be out of place. Yet, you know a threat is looming... What do you do?"

(TL;DR: Here, I contemplate how something can "feel compelled" to follow a mental command, yet not be aware that there is a compulsion.)

As the Planar Bound creature is stated to explicitely be able to "strive to twist" the wording of the command to respect the letter and not the intent, it must be able to identify the compulsion. If it was something it was totally unaware of, there would be no striving.

One of the stranger things in the army of high level planar bound creature is how to find them in a place where they are alone in the first place.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

So far...

The Sorcerer that tried to create a magen army miscalculated his own HP and died summoning the 60th Magen -- Team Wizard victory.
The Sorcerer that tried to fry the world in lightning died of thirst and hunger in his own demiplane where he had blocked any planar movement... including out -- Team Wizard victory.
The Sorcerer that tried to never land because he was thinking that flying made it immune to Glyphs of Warding (don't ask!) died of exhaustion after discovering that you can't take long rests riding a pegasus -- Team Wizard vitory.
The Sorcerer that tried to be infinitely stealthy and kill wizard from one mile out apparently never figured his routine that would work on a wizard that could have one of two contingency reliably and died of old age apparently as we never heard from him again -- Team Wizard victory.
The Sorcerer that tried to sublty mind control the infernal host to hunt wizard was killed because he worded his command so bady he could be considered the first target of his elimination order by the letter of it -- Team Wizard victory.

So far, on top of not having legal builds, the previous iterations all managed to kill themselves before any Wizardly intervention.


@Hohige is doing tremendous progress though, the latest iterations have some personnality, the stone chicken daydream (which was playtested and resulted in yet another Team Wizard victory) was awesome and the last one actually had a plan.

One that Wizards would be more apt to pull off, unfortunately.

 

[gigawatt]

So far...

The Sorcerer that tried to create a magen army miscalculated his own HP and died summoning the 60th Magen -- Team Wizard victory.
The Sorcerer that tried to fry the world in lightning died of thirst and hunger in his own demiplane where he had blocked any planar movement... including out -- Team Wizard victory.
The Sorcerer that tried to never land because he was thinking that flying made it immune to Glyphs of Warding (don't ask!) died of exhaustion after discovering that you can't take long rests riding a pegasus -- Team Wizard vitory.
The Sorcerer that tried to be infinitely stealthy and kill wizard from one mile out apparently never figured his routine that would work on a wizard that could have one of two contingency reliably and died of old age apparently as we never heard from him again -- Team Wizard victory.
The Sorcerer that tried to sublty mind control the infernal host to hunt wizard was killed because he worded his command so bady he could be considered the first target of his elimination order by the letter of it -- Team Wizard victory.

So far, on top of not having legal builds, the previous iterations all managed to kill themselves before any Wizardly intervention.


@Hohige is doing tremendous progress though, the latest iterations have some personnality, the stone chicken daydream (which was playtested and resulted in yet another Team Wizard victory) was awesome and the last one actually had a plan.

One that Wizards would be more apt to pull off, unfortunately.

It is worth noting that while the Sorcerer might not be the indestructible demigod he was made out to be, @Hohige has roused a vigorous conversation and continues to bring us unique and exciting characters to discuss!

Jokes aside, it was really fun reading about this character and I can’t wait to see OP’s future nonsensical ideas.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

See, I handle this kind of thing in my game by only asking for a check when there's a chance you could be discovered.

"I sneak out into the world hunting wizards!"

"Ok."

"I roll a 80 gazillion stealth check!"

"Ok, doesn't count, but you're welcome to roll for your own entertainment."

"I sneak up on the wizard and ambush him!"

"Cool, roll a Stealth check to see how successful you are*."

*This assumes that hiding is possible in the situation.

I tell you what, this nicely eliminates the "but I have guidance, and bardic inspiration, and cast Empower Ability, and used my class ability!" because the answer is then, "okay you start doing that, but it takes your action and you can't attempt to hide from the wizard until you finish them. The wizard notices you."

I usually ask the players who like to sneak around what their normal bonus is when sneaking (no short term spells and the like) and roll 4-5 totals for them that I keep hidden behind my screen. Whenever they are sneaking in a narrated scene I use the next available total and mark it off. I like to avoid the meta of the players knowing they "hid poorly". Once combat rolls around I have them make the rolls each round and "keep the number handy in case I ask for it".

 

[Ovinomancer]

I usually ask the players who like to sneak around what their normal bonus is when sneaking (no short term spells and the like) and roll 4-5 totals for them that I keep hidden behind my screen. Whenever they are sneaking in a narrated scene I use the next available total and mark it off. I like to avoid the meta of the players knowing they "hid poorly". Once combat rolls around I have them make the rolls each round and "keep the number handy in case I ask for it".

Which is why I ask at the point of being detected for a roll -- if they roll poorly, they're spotted right then.

I do the same for forgeries, which, admittedly, come up much less often. Primarily, my point is that checks occur when there's an actual test, not prior to that point.

 

[Hohige]

The Puppet Master, Master of Deception and Darkness. The Bastion of Law, The Wizard Slayer. All hail the god.


I explain it correctly, since several distortions are being made shamelessly.



1) The Subtle Spell and Perceiving a caster at work (Xanathar's)


"Many spells create obvious effects: explosions of fire, walls of ice, teleportation, and the like. Other spells, such as charm person, display no visible, audible, or otherwise perceptible sign of their effects, and could easily go unnoticed by someone unaffected by them. As noted
in the Player's Handbook, you normally don't know that a spell has been cast unless the spell produces a noticeable effect.

But what about the act of casting a spell? Is it possible for someone to perceive that a spell is being cast in their presence?
To be perceptible, the casting of a spell must involve a verbal, somatic, or material component.
The form of a material component doesn't matter for the purposes of perception, whether it's an object specified in the spell's description, a component pouch, or a spellcasting focus. If the need for a spell's components has been removed by a special ability, such as the sorcerer's Subtle Spell feature or the Innate Spellcasting trait possessed by many creatures, the casting of the spell is imperceptible.

If an imperceptible casting produces a perceptible effect, it's normally impossible to determine who cast the spell in the absence of other evidence.


Bastion's spells are imperceptible, I repeat, imperceptible. About Material Component? It doesn't matter, as it is hidden. The enemy cannot see any type of material component.



"As noted in the Player's Handbook, you normally don't know that a spell has been cast unless the spell produces a noticeable effect."


Here it is clear and objective. In addition to the Bastion spell being imperceptible and the enemy is unaware that it has been affected by a spell that has no visual or noticeable effect.

---

Stealth Casting and Planar Binding:

Furthermore, his spells do not reveal himself and are IMPERCEPTIBLE and their effects are not perceived by his targets. The target is simply affected by imperceptible magic and has no visual effect.

Subtle Spell allows the Sorcerer to be the only class capable of being entirely hidden while casting spells, without revealing it. Yes, this is very powerful and combined with an invincible Stealth Check it is almost impossible to defeat it. The master of shadows and silent.

This precludes any hostility or reaction from the affected creature.
That is, Subtle Dominate Person, Stealth Casting Subtle Planar Binding are not perceived by the target.

Yes, Wish for Planar Binding can dominate any creature without the creature having a chance to know who it is or to perceive any spell effects.
Combined with Stealth Casting and Telepathy feat he is simply invincible.

---

The Planar Binding and Hostility:

Planar Binding:
"The creature obeys the letter of your instructions, but if the creature is Hostile to you, it strives to twist your words to achieve its own objectives."

Since the Bastion is completely hidden, its spells are imperceptible and the creature does not know that it has been affected by Subtle Planar Binding or knows that it is being manipulated. It won't be hostile and will follow the mental command without question and without a chance to twist it.

---

Battle field.
He is imperceptible, hidden, his spells display no visible, audible, or otherwise perceptible sign of their effects, except Meteor Swarm, he has an Invincible Stealth checks.
It has powerful Simulacrums.
With Trance of Order and Mind Blank you are totally immune to any spell that the Wizard can cast. Immunity against all spells that can hurt him.
Your Simulacrum can simply heal him with Clockwork Cavalcate and cast greater restoration (Mind Blank and Greater Restoration and Greater Invisibility counters so hard the Feeblemind spell) freely.
Your Contingency is "Cast Greater Invisibility if the enemy can detect you". Powerful 100 hp heals as bonus action (Clockwork Cavalcate). Subtle Dispel magic is imperceptible, Subtle Polymorph is imperceptible until the target becomes a Chicken. Distant Spells can simple devastate creatures over great distances.
If an enemy reduces his HP to 0, then, The Simulacrum's Clockwork Cavalcate regain 100 HP, returning to fight, full HP with 200 HP (2 CWC).
Clone Spell turns him still more harder to defeat.
Your Simulacrum assassin detects any Magical Trap with a minimum 24 Investigation check.
No divination magic works against Nondetection or Mind Blank. He's completetly hidden against Divination.


This is the most powerful character ever created. There is no competition against him.
No multiclass, no magical items is needed.

 

[gigawatt]

View attachment 132200

The Puppet Master, Master of Deception and Darkness. The Bastion of Law, The Wizard Slayer. All hail the god.


I explain it correctly, since several distortions are being made shamelessly.



1) The Subtle Spell and Perceiving a caster at work (Xanathar's)


"Many spells create obvious effects: explosions of fire, walls of ice, teleportation, and the like. Other spells, such as charm person, display no visible, audible, or otherwise perceptible sign of their effects, and could easily go unnoticed by someone unaffected by them. As noted
in the Player's Handbook, you normally don't know that a spell has been cast unless the spell produces a noticeable effect.

But what about the act of casting a spell? Is it possible for someone to perceive that a spell is being cast in their presence?
To be perceptible, the casting of a spell must involve a verbal, somatic, or material component.
The form of a material component doesn't matter for the purposes of perception, whether it's an object specified in the spell's description, a component pouch, or a spellcasting focus. If the need for a spell's components has been removed by a special ability, such as the sorcerer's Subtle Spell feature or the Innate Spellcasting trait possessed by many creatures, the casting of the spell is imperceptible.

If an imperceptible casting produces a perceptible effect, it's normally impossible to determine who cast the spell in the absence of other evidence.


Bastion's spells are imperceptible, I repeat, imperceptible. About Material Component? It doesn't matter, as it is hidden. The enemy cannot see any type of material component.



"As noted in the Player's Handbook, you normally don't know that a spell has been cast unless the spell produces a noticeable effect."


Here it is clear and objective. In addition to the Bastion spell being imperceptible and the enemy is unaware that it has been affected by a spell that has no visual or noticeable effect.

---

Stealth Casting and Planar Binding:

Furthermore, his spells do not reveal himself and are IMPERCEPTIBLE and their effects are not perceived by his targets. The target is simply affected by imperceptible magic and has no visual effect.

Subtle Spell allows the Sorcerer to be the only class capable of being entirely hidden while casting spells, without revealing it. Yes, this is very powerful and combined with an invincible Stealth Check it is almost impossible to defeat it. The master of shadows and silent.

This precludes any hostility or reaction from the affected creature.
That is, Subtle Dominate Person, Stealth Casting Subtle Planar Binding are not perceived by the target.

Yes, Wish for Planar Binding can dominate any creature without the creature having a chance to know who it is or to perceive any spell effects.
Combined with Stealth Casting and Telepathy feat he is simply invincible.

---

The Planar Binding and Hostility:

Planar Binding:
"The creature obeys the letter of your instructions, but if the creature is Hostile to you, it strives to twist your words to achieve its own objectives."

Since the Bastion is completely hidden, its spells are imperceptible and the creature does not know that it has been affected by Subtle Planar Binding or knows that it is being manipulated. It won't be hostile and will follow the mental command without question and without a chance to twist it.

---

Battle field.
He is imperceptible, hidden, his spells display no visible, audible, or otherwise perceptible sign of their effects, except Meteor Swarm, he has an Invincible Stealth checks.
It has powerful Simulacrums.
With Trance of Order and Mind Blank you are totally immune to any spell that the Wizard can cast. Immunity against all spells that can hurt him.
Your Simulacrum can simply heal him with Clockwork Cavalcate and cast greater restoration (Mind Blank and Greater Restoration and Greater Invisibility counters so hard the Feeblemind spell) freely.
Your Contingency is "Cast Greater Invisibility if the enemy can detect you". Powerful 100 hp heals as bonus action (Clockwork Cavalcate). Subtle Dispel magic is imperceptible, Subtle Polymorph is imperceptible until the target becomes a Chicken. Distant Spells can simple devastate creatures over great distances.
If an enemy reduces his HP to 0, then, The Simulacrum's Clockwork Cavalcate regain 100 HP, returning to fight, full HP with 200 HP (2 CWC).
Clone Spell turns him still more harder to defeat.
Your Simulacrum assassin detects any Magical Trap with a minimum 24 Investigation check.
No divination magic works against Nondetection or Mind Blank. He's completetly hidden against Divination.


This is the most powerful character ever created. There is no competition against him.
No multiclass, no magical items is needed.

The part that you are missing is this:
Sul will kill you before you can planar bind them. If you stand in front of them they will not just ignore you. They will kill you, and with one hit point it wouldn’t be hard. Especially because invisibility and Mind Blank don’t foil true sight. Which they have.

Any argument that they wouldn’t kill you on sight is simply begging to the DM.

All a creature has to do is hit you with an unarmed strike to kill you. You aren’t immune to a meteor swarm just because you have a high save DC. This means another caster can cast greater invisibility and meteor swarm you.

Keep in mind, YOU CANT BE HEALED. You reduced your hit point maximum when you created way to many magens.

 

[gigawatt]

The part that you are missing is this:
Sul will kill you before you can planar bind them. If you stand in front of them they will not just ignore you. They will kill you, and with one hit point it wouldn’t be hard. Especially because invisibility and Mind Blank don’t foil true sight. Which they have.

Any argument that they wouldn’t kill you on sight is simply begging to the DM.

All a creature has to do is hit you with an unarmed strike to kill you. You aren’t immune to a meteor swarm just because you have a high save DC. This means another caster can cast greater invisibility and meteor swarm you.

Keep in mind, YOU CANT BE HEALED. You reduced your hit point maximum when you created way to many magens.

I would also say that the FORM of the material component doesn’t matter in terms of perception, but it can still be perceived per Jeremey Crawford’s tweets. It doesn’t matter if you are using a focus or material components, because either way they can be perceived.