D&D 5E 20th level Sorcerer vs the world

[nogray]

Here, I am replying to various topics, so I have broken them into their own spoiler blocks. (If this is annoying, let me know. I just like a post with a smaller footprint, so I enclose things in blocks.)

On Polymorph, True Polymorph, and one difference therebetween:
(TL;DR: @Hohige is wrong about what you can do while in a form granted by Polymorph. I give justifications and quotes.)

Spoiler

"You can disagree all you like, but that is the history of that particular creature. It isn't a species, but rather a unique individual that wished for the physical form of an otter (or approximately that of an otter; I think he can still talk and use his forepaws as hands and whatnot)."

And? Polymorph turns you into a beasts with CR equal or lower your level, It doesn't care about be unique or not.
The Traxigor is a beast CR 12. It's a valid choice.

Yes, Trax is a valid choice. I never said it wasn't.

"You see the end of that line: "The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, AND it can't speak, cast spells, or take any action that requires hands or speech." The AND is adding another restriction to the Polymorph form. It means that you are BOTH limited by the nature of your new form AND that you can't speak or cast spells (or use your hands)."

You can't cast spells that requires hands or speech. Trabaxi has hands and can speech.
It's clear as water.

That you're wrong? Ayup. That is clear as water. RTFM on Polymorph.

"The creature is limited in the actions it can perform (1) by the nature of its new form, and (2) it can't speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech."

No qualifiers at all, just two restrictions on your actions. Under the base polymorph spell, a creature can't, "speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech," at all. Ever. This is in addition to its being, "limited . . . by the nature of its new form." Both limitations apply. If a creature is polymorphed into a hypothetical talking fish that has hands but no land speed and can't breathe air (but has a swim speed and can breathe underwater), it has the following restrictions:

• It can't move on the land. It is limited by the nature of its new form to be unable to move on the land.
• It can move in the water with a swim speed. That's probably why it wanted to be a fish in the first place.
• It can breathe underwater. That's probably why it wanted to be a fish in the first place, too.
• It can't breathe air. It is limited by the nature of its new form.
• It can't speak. The polymorph spell says without any qualification, ". . . and it can't speak." Even though the talky-fish can, someone polymorphed into the talky-fish cannot. Why? The polymorph spell says so.
• It can't use its hands. The polymorph spell says without any qualification that it can't, ". . . take any other action that requires hands." Even though the handsy-fish can, someone polymorphed into the handsy-fish can't. Why? The polymorph spell says so.

Compare that to the True Polymorph spell, which adds to the end of that very same sentence the phrase, ". . . and it can't speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech, unless its new form is capable of such actions." Taking the same talky-handsy-fishy example from above:

• It can't move on the land. It is limited by the nature of its new form to be unable to move on the land.
• It can move in the water with a swim speed. That's probably why it wanted to be a fish in the first place.
• It can breathe underwater. That's probably why it wanted to be a fish in the first place, too.
• It can't breathe air. It is limited by the nature of its new form.
• It can speak. The true polymorph spell says it can't speak, "unless its new form is capable of such actions." Since the talky-fish can talk, so can someone true-polymorphed into a talky-fish.
• It can use its hands. The true polymorph spell says it can't take any action that requires its hands, "unless its new form is capable of such actions." Since the handsy-fish can use its hands for actions, so can someone true-polymorphed into a handsy-fish.

It's simple reading comprehension. The Polymorph spell does not allow talking, casting spells, or the taking of any action that requires hands or speech, regardless of whether the assumed form has these capabilities. It also limits you to taking actions according to the nature of your new form. The True Polymorph spell relaxes the restriction on speaking and using hands (and casting spells) through that additional phrase; it is limited only by the nature of the new form.

On Initiative, and the determination thereof:
(TL;DR: I mostly ignore the strawman "example" that @Hohige used and give a description of how I would play out a hidden ambusher approaching a target with the Alert feat. I ask other posters to weigh in, if they are so inclined.)

Spoiler

"You still don't know how D&D initiative works. If you declare a hostile action, initiative is rolled. That's it. It's not about what the target perceives, it's about your action declaration. If it helps you conceptualize it more clearly, think of things that remove surprise (the Alert feat, Foresight) as something like Spidey Sense. If a person isn't surprised (after your hostile action declaration), and if they win initiative then they can take an action, secure in the knowledge that some unseen entity was about to start some hostilities with them. Don't like that? Then stop pretending you are playing (or discussing the play of) 5e D&D."

I strongly disagree.

You're allowed to be wrong. RAW and RAI, wrong. Almost fractally wrong, at this point.

You are not involved in combat against someone that you can't see, detect or feel.

In no case can only one side be involved in a combat. The sorcerer is trying to cast a hostile spell. This triggers initiative. Period. Whether or not there is surprise governs who can act on those initiative counts. It's the rules.

Try your luck with your DM saying. I can't see anything, feel anything and I'm going to roll initive. He will laugh at you.

Let's imagine this hilarious scene:

I'd rather not.

For you? Is this how D&D 5e works?

Banal strawman example aside, how 5e works is like this:

1. Determine surprise.
DM (to Sorcerer): The target is <here, doing this>. Do you want to <do the ambush> or <wait for circumstances to change>?
Sorcerer: This is fine. When I am <at whatever range>, I cast <whatever hostile spell>.
DM (to herself): Okay, so Target has the Alert feat, and Sorcerer is aware of Target, so there is no surprise round.
2. Establish positions.
DM (to Sorcerer): The Target is <here>, and these are the things that can provide concealment as you approach <sketches or describes the foliage or whatever>. Where do you want to be?
Sorcerer: I'll be here, behind this clump of bushes.
DM (to Sorcerer): Sounds fine.
3. Roll initiative.
DM (to Sorcerer and Target): Roll initiative.
Target: Do I see anything?
DM: You don't, but you feel <hostile intent or magic focused on you, or "the hairs on the back of your neck stand on end," or whatever else works for the character and why they have the Alert feat, including how it has been RP'd in the past>. If it wasn't for your Alert feat, this would be a surprise round.
Target: Okay. <rolls: beats Sorcerer (for example)>
4. Take turns.
DM (to target): What do you do?
Target: Since I'm on the ground, here, and don't see anything, I . . .

. . . and what follows depends on how that character tends to react to ambushes, or how he reacts in this situation, given what that character knows. A fighter would likely either ready an action to attack or use their action to search. A rogue might dive for cover and enter stealth himself. A wizard might Dimension Door straight up 500 ft (with his ranged Warlock party member), casting Feather Fall as a reaction. The new perspective might invalidate whatever concealment you are using (if it was, for example, low-growth bushes or rocks you were hiding behind), thus exposing your Sorcerer by no longer having concealment. (I think this triggers your Contingency, if it hasn't already been triggered when that squirrel to which you got too close saw you with an unobstructed line of sight, so they would only briefly see you before you went improved invisible.)

Now, where did I go wrong? Everything is there, step-by-step by the book. At no point did anyone come to know exactly where you were or anything. (You are still hidden, after all.) There was no metagaming. Everyone got to use their feats and features. All the rules were followed. Seems legit to me. Maybe @prabe or @Galandris or @Ovinomancer could weigh in on that description.

On what might be noticable, even when invisible:
(TL;DR: Here, I contemplate how something can "feel compelled" to follow a mental command, yet not be aware that there is a compulsion.)

Spoiler

No It wont. It Just feel compelled to follow The mental command. That ALL.
The effect isnt obvious.

and

"s to the subtle spell on Planar Binding stuff, if it is possible to get the spell off subtly (presumably by Wish), then that still doesn't mean that the creature obeys your mental command without twisting it. They might not recognize your face, but they are likely to be hostile to whomever bound them, and so those orders are very likely to be . . . creatively interpreted."

By Wish or Standard Spell.

Are you ruling?
Hostile for what? a mental mensage ?

In short, yes. Hostile to the mental message, especially one that they feel compelled to obey. That sort of compulsion is intolerable to these kinds of entities. That compulsion to follow that mental message? It's noticeable. It is a perceivable effect of the spell. In a D&D world, don't just think of the senses humans have. It would be a DC 20 Arcana check to identify exactly what that compulsion is, in fact.

I'm not saying that the mentioned entities would successfully make that check, but there is a noticeable effect of being compelled to follow an order (received via noticeable telepathic command/speech), to which each of them would be hostile. That's why Planar Binding usually involves making a bargain with the bound entity. (Well, that's one reason. The other is fun. It's more fun to RP bargaining with something or accepting the risk of its hostility than to just play like a computer game with static inputs and outputs. In my experience, anyway.)

I am still waiting (and others might be, too, though I would imagine that any interest is waning) on a legal build for one of your Bois. Is one forthcoming? None on the front page are, as of this posting, legal characters. Since you've been asked multiple times, with the errors pointed out, can I assume that you are unable to provide such a legal build?

 

[Ovinomancer]

To be clear, if you are casting a spell that requires costly components, such as planar binding, the casting is NOT imperceptible. Sul would not just sit there and watch as you sprinkle ruby dust at their feet. I will provide sources as it seems @Hohige doesn't like sources themself.

Subtle Spell doesn't remove material component, so a spell with "M" doesn't benefit?

D&D Sage Advice ·

www.sageadvice.eu

It's being cast with Wish as an 8th level spell -- or, at least, this is the best steelman of the concept. 1 shot, 5% chance of success, but it requires no material component, takes but 1 action, and can be case subtly.

 

[gigawatt]

So why would Sul not just Legendary Resist? I read a bit from before but it would seem that the Squishy One thinks he can last even one round in order to burn through Sul's Legendary Resistances. Let alone 3 rounds.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Here, I am replying to various topics, so I have broken them into their own spoiler blocks. (If this is annoying, let me know. I just like a post with a smaller footprint, so I enclose things in blocks.)

On Polymorph, True Polymorph, and one difference therebetween:
(TL;DR: @Hohige is wrong about what you can do while in a form granted by Polymorph. I give justifications and quotes.)

Spoiler

Yes, Trax is a valid choice. I never said it wasn't.



That you're wrong? Ayup. That is clear as water. RTFM on Polymorph.

"The creature is limited in the actions it can perform (1) by the nature of its new form, and (2) it can't speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech."

No qualifiers at all, just two restrictions on your actions. Under the base polymorph spell, a creature can't, "speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech," at all. Ever. This is in addition to its being, "limited . . . by the nature of its new form." Both limitations apply. If a creature is polymorphed into a hypothetical talking fish that has hands but no land speed and can't breathe air (but has a swim speed and can breathe underwater), it has the following restrictions:

• It can't move on the land. It is limited by the nature of its new form to be unable to move on the land.
• It can move in the water with a swim speed. That's probably why it wanted to be a fish in the first place.
• It can breathe underwater. That's probably why it wanted to be a fish in the first place, too.
• It can't breathe air. It is limited by the nature of its new form.
• It can't speak. The polymorph spell says without any qualification, ". . . and it can't speak." Even though the talky-fish can, someone polymorphed into the talky-fish cannot. Why? The polymorph spell says so.
• It can't use its hands. The polymorph spell says without any qualification that it can't, ". . . take any other action that requires hands." Even though the handsy-fish can, someone polymorphed into the handsy-fish can't. Why? The polymorph spell says so.

Compare that to the True Polymorph spell, which adds to the end of that very same sentence the phrase, ". . . and it can't speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech, unless its new form is capable of such actions." Taking the same talky-handsy-fishy example from above:

• It can't move on the land. It is limited by the nature of its new form to be unable to move on the land.
• It can move in the water with a swim speed. That's probably why it wanted to be a fish in the first place.
• It can breathe underwater. That's probably why it wanted to be a fish in the first place, too.
• It can't breathe air. It is limited by the nature of its new form.
• It can speak. The true polymorph spell says it can't speak, "unless its new form is capable of such actions." Since the talky-fish can talk, so can someone true-polymorphed into a talky-fish.
• It can use its hands. The true polymorph spell says it can't take any action that requires its hands, "unless its new form is capable of such actions." Since the handsy-fish can use its hands for actions, so can someone true-polymorphed into a handsy-fish.

It's simple reading comprehension. The Polymorph spell does not allow talking, casting spells, or the taking of any action that requires hands or speech, regardless of whether the assumed form has these capabilities. It also limits you to taking actions according to the nature of your new form. The True Polymorph spell relaxes the restriction on speaking and using hands (and casting spells) through that additional phrase; it is limited only by the nature of the new form.

On Initiative, and the determination thereof:
(TL;DR: I mostly ignore the strawman "example" that @Hohige used and give a description of how I would play out a hidden ambusher approaching a target with the Alert feat. I ask other posters to weigh in, if they are so inclined.)

Spoiler

You're allowed to be wrong. RAW and RAI, wrong. Almost fractally wrong, at this point.



In no case can only one side be involved in a combat. The sorcerer is trying to cast a hostile spell. This triggers initiative. Period. Whether or not there is surprise governs who can act on those initiative counts. It's the rules.



I'd rather not.



Banal strawman example aside, how 5e works is like this:

1. Determine surprise.
DM (to Sorcerer): The target is <here, doing this>. Do you want to <do the ambush> or <wait for circumstances to change>?
Sorcerer: This is fine. When I am <at whatever range>, I cast <whatever hostile spell>.
DM (to herself): Okay, so Target has the Alert feat, and Sorcerer is aware of Target, so there is no surprise round.
2. Establish positions.
DM (to Sorcerer): The Target is <here>, and these are the things that can provide concealment as you approach <sketches or describes the foliage or whatever>. Where do you want to be?
Sorcerer: I'll be here, behind this clump of bushes.
DM (to Sorcerer): Sounds fine.
3. Roll initiative.
DM (to Sorcerer and Target): Roll initiative.
Target: Do I see anything?
DM: You don't, but you feel <hostile intent or magic focused on you, or "the hairs on the back of your neck stand on end," or whatever else works for the character and why they have the Alert feat, including how it has been RP'd in the past>. If it wasn't for your Alert feat, this would be a surprise round.
Target: Okay. <rolls: beats Sorcerer (for example)>
4. Take turns.
DM (to target): What do you do?
Target: Since I'm on the ground, here, and don't see anything, I . . .

. . . and what follows depends on how that character tends to react to ambushes, or how he reacts in this situation, given what that character knows. A fighter would likely either ready an action to attack or use their action to search. A rogue might dive for cover and enter stealth himself. A wizard might Dimension Door straight up 500 ft (with his ranged Warlock party member), casting Feather Fall as a reaction. The new perspective might invalidate whatever concealment you are using (if it was, for example, low-growth bushes or rocks you were hiding behind), thus exposing your Sorcerer by no longer having concealment. (I think this triggers your Contingency, if it hasn't already been triggered when that squirrel to which you got too close saw you with an unobstructed line of sight, so they would only briefly see you before you went improved invisible.)

Now, where did I go wrong? Everything is there, step-by-step by the book. At no point did anyone come to know exactly where you were or anything. (You are still hidden, after all.) There was no metagaming. Everyone got to use their feats and features. All the rules were followed. Seems legit to me. Maybe @prabe or @Galandris or @Ovinomancer could weigh in on that description.

On what might be noticable, even when invisible:
(TL;DR: Here, I contemplate how something can "feel compelled" to follow a mental command, yet not be aware that there is a compulsion.)

Spoiler

and


In short, yes. Hostile to the mental message, especially one that they feel compelled to obey. That sort of compulsion is intolerable to these kinds of entities. That compulsion to follow that mental message? It's noticeable. It is a perceivable effect of the spell. In a D&D world, don't just think of the senses humans have. It would be a DC 20 Arcana check to identify exactly what that compulsion is, in fact.

I'm not saying that the mentioned entities would successfully make that check, but there is a noticeable effect of being compelled to follow an order (received via noticeable telepathic command/speech), to which each of them would be hostile. That's why Planar Binding usually involves making a bargain with the bound entity. (Well, that's one reason. The other is fun. It's more fun to RP bargaining with something or accepting the risk of its hostility than to just play like a computer game with static inputs and outputs. In my experience, anyway.)

I am still waiting (and others might be, too, though I would imagine that any interest is waning) on a legal build for one of your Bois. Is one forthcoming? None on the front page are, as of this posting, legal characters. Since you've been asked multiple times, with the errors pointed out, can I assume that you are unable to provide such a legal build?

Seems pretty good to me. What keeps tripping me up is the claim that the target just doesn't notice telepathy.

 

[Ovinomancer]

So why would Sul not just Legendary Resist? I read a bit from before but it would seem that the Squishy One thinks he can last even one round in order to burn through Sul's Legendary Resistances. Let alone 3 rounds.

No reason at all. Except the claim that the target can't possibly know anything is happening because it's all imperceptible, which, to me, is self-defeating because the target just doesn't notice (or do) anything at all in that case.

It's not a good approach, but @Hohige has never backed down from an assertion, no matter the evidence or arguments presented.

 

[Istbor]

"Traxigor is a 17th level Wizard polymorphed into an otter."

I strongly disagree
Traxigor is a beast CR 12 with spellcasting. The Polymoprh turn you into a beast with CR equal or lower than your level.

"Plus, such a transformation wouldn't be very useful since Polymorph states that "and it can't speak, cast spells" so... no you can't."
I strongly disagree,

The creature is limited in the Actions it can perform by the Nature of its new form, and it can't speak, cast Spells, or take any other action that requires hands or Speech.

Traxigor can use hands and speech to cast spells. So, casting is avaiable for this new form.

So you would take your 'all powerful' Sorcerer, and turn him into a wizard?

 

[gigawatt]

This seems to be what is happening, which is quite ironic.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

So why would Sul not just Legendary Resist? I read a bit from before but it would seem that the Squishy One thinks he can last even one round in order to burn through Sul's Legendary Resistances. Let alone 3 rounds.

This (last time I checked) is the legend who somehow made his way into the very inner sanctum of a Drow enclave to boop a Matron Mother on the nose in order to Twin Wish simulacra of her and himself, somehow escaped with both simulacra, somehow is not being pursued by an army of Drow, and somehow never has the Drow Matron Mother simulacrum run out of spells.

So the answer is that he has the most powerful heroic quality of all: a very lenient DM. One might even say that he is a DMPC.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

It's not a good approach, but @Hohige has never backed down from an assertion, no matter the evidence or arguments presented.

I strongly agree.

 

[gigawatt]

This (last time I checked) is the legend who somehow made his way into the very inner sanctum of a Drow enclave to boop a Matron Mother on the nose in order to Twin Wish simulacra of her and himself, somehow escaped with both simulacra, somehow is not being pursued by an army of Drow, and somehow never has the Drow Matron Mother simulacrum run out of spells.

So the answer is that he has the most powerful heroic quality of all: a very lenient DM. One might even say that he is a DMPC.

Ahh, how could we have overlooked the foolproof strategy of Twin Subtle Quicken Empowered Wish cast 5 times a day to control any creature you want? All while never getting hit once? Foolish of us!