D&D 5E 20th level Sorcerer vs the world

[Ovinomancer]

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The Puppet Master, Master of Deception and Darkness. The Bastion of Law, The Wizard Slayer. All hail the god.


I explain it correctly, since several distortions are being made shamelessly.



1) The Subtle Spell and Perceiving a caster at work (Xanathar's)


"Many spells create obvious effects: explosions of fire, walls of ice, teleportation, and the like. Other spells, such as charm person, display no visible, audible, or otherwise perceptible sign of their effects, and could easily go unnoticed by someone unaffected by them. As noted
in the Player's Handbook, you normally don't know that a spell has been cast unless the spell produces a noticeable effect.

But what about the act of casting a spell? Is it possible for someone to perceive that a spell is being cast in their presence?
To be perceptible, the casting of a spell must involve a verbal, somatic, or material component.
The form of a material component doesn't matter for the purposes of perception, whether it's an object specified in the spell's description, a component pouch, or a spellcasting focus. If the need for a spell's components has been removed by a special ability, such as the sorcerer's Subtle Spell feature or the Innate Spellcasting trait possessed by many creatures, the casting of the spell is imperceptible.

If an imperceptible casting produces a perceptible effect, it's normally impossible to determine who cast the spell in the absence of other evidence.


Bastion's spells are imperceptible, I repeat, imperceptible. About Material Component? It doesn't matter, as it is hidden. The enemy cannot see any type of material component.



"As noted in the Player's Handbook, you normally don't know that a spell has been cast unless the spell produces a noticeable effect."


Here it is clear and objective. In addition to the Bastion spell being imperceptible and the enemy is unaware that it has been affected by a spell that has no visual or noticeable effect.

---

Stealth Casting and Planar Binding:

Furthermore, his spells do not reveal himself and are IMPERCEPTIBLE and their effects are not perceived by his targets. The target is simply affected by imperceptible magic and has no visual effect.

Subtle Spell allows the Sorcerer to be the only class capable of being entirely hidden while casting spells, without revealing it. Yes, this is very powerful and combined with an invincible Stealth Check it is almost impossible to defeat it. The master of shadows and silent.

This precludes any hostility or reaction from the affected creature.
That is, Subtle Dominate Person, Stealth Casting Subtle Planar Binding are not perceived by the target.

Yes, Wish for Planar Binding can dominate any creature without the creature having a chance to know who it is or to perceive any spell effects.
Combined with Stealth Casting and Telepathy feat he is simply invincible.

---

The Planar Binding and Hostility:

Planar Binding:
"The creature obeys the letter of your instructions, but if the creature is Hostile to you, it strives to twist your words to achieve its own objectives."

Since the Bastion is completely hidden, its spells are imperceptible and the creature does not know that it has been affected by Subtle Planar Binding or knows that it is being manipulated. It won't be hostile and will follow the mental command without question and without a chance to twist it.

---

Battle field.
He is imperceptible, hidden, his spells display no visible, audible, or otherwise perceptible sign of their effects, except Meteor Swarm, he has an Invincible Stealth checks.
It has powerful Simulacrums.
With Trance of Order and Mind Blank you are totally immune to any spell that the Wizard can cast. Immunity against all spells that can hurt him.
Your Simulacrum can simply heal him with Clockwork Cavalcate and cast greater restoration (Mind Blank and Greater Restoration and Greater Invisibility counters so hard the Feeblemind spell) freely.
Your Contingency is "Cast Greater Invisibility if the enemy can detect you". Powerful 100 hp heals as bonus action (Clockwork Cavalcate). Subtle Dispel magic is imperceptible, Subtle Polymorph is imperceptible until the target becomes a Chicken. Distant Spells can simple devastate creatures over great distances.
If an enemy reduces his HP to 0, then, The Simulacrum's Clockwork Cavalcate regain 100 HP, returning to fight, full HP with 200 HP (2 CWC).
Clone Spell turns him still more harder to defeat.
Your Simulacrum assassin detects any Magical Trap with a minimum 24 Investigation check.
No divination magic works against Nondetection or Mind Blank. He's completetly hidden against Divination.


This is the most powerful character ever created. There is no competition against him.
No multiclass, no magical items is needed.

You realize that your quote says that spells without visual effect may not be noticed by those unaffected by them. The target notices them, because they are affected.

 

[Eltab]

A Demon Lord, amid his entourage, feels a magical compulsion. His first action will be to demand "Who dares cast a spell on me!?" ... And all his subordinates begin searching the vicinity with their enhanced senses.

The Squishy One now is in the reverse situation from being attacked while in his flying cloud of Seeming magen. Explaining his way out of this will provide information (and rules interpretations) to use when the Wizards mount a counter-attack.

 

[Eltab]

So far...

The Sorcerer that tried to create a magen army miscalculated his own HP and died summoning the 60th Magen -- Team Wizard victory.
The Sorcerer that tried to fry the world in lightning died of thirst and hunger in his own demiplane where he had blocked any planar movement... including out -- Team Wizard victory.
The Sorcerer that tried to never land because he was thinking that flying made it immune to Glyphs of Warding (don't ask!) died of exhaustion after discovering that you can't take long rests riding a pegasus -- Team Wizard vitory.
The Sorcerer that tried to be infinitely stealthy and kill wizard from one mile out apparently never figured his routine that would work on a wizard that could have one of two contingency reliably and died of old age apparently as we never heard from him again -- Team Wizard victory.
The Sorcerer that tried to sublty mind control the infernal host to hunt wizard was killed because he worded his command so bady he could be considered the first target of his elimination order by the letter of it -- Team Wizard victory.

So far, on top of not having legal builds, the previous iterations all managed to kill themselves before any Wizardly intervention.


@Hohige is doing tremendous progress though, the latest iterations have some personnality, the stone chicken daydream (which was playtested and resulted in yet another Team Wizard victory) was awesome and the last one actually had a plan.

One that Wizards would be more apt to pull off, unfortunately.

The lightning sorcerer is also being intermittently stalked by dragon-forms which stay at a distance and observe carefully.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Let's imagine that the order wasn't so poorly worded that it identified the target with a losely defined word that encompass the sorcerer himself...

Orcus command:
"Wizards challenge you, defeat them all, turn them into your undead slaves."

Orcus, "striving to twist" the intent of the orders given and following the letter, will first notice that he lacks any mean of fast travel, most notably planar travel. So he just decides to walk for a year, hoping to randomly stumble over a wizard by chance somewhere in the Abyss. Good luck finding him again... 180 days after that, he's free again and will exact revenge. WBC (Wizard Body Count) = 0.

Yeenoghu:

"Wizards challenge you, defeat them all eat your meat as a reward."

Yeenoghu will first wonder why eating meat he owns would a reward for defeating all wizards; he surely can have a steak whereever he wants... oh noes! He's bound to apparently be a vegetarian until she defeats all Wizard. That son of a....

Anyway, Yeenoghu, having no way to leave the Abyss, can at least teleport to a wizard he might know near his demesne, one of his most loyal servants.

poof Yeenoghu materializes.
Chief Gnoll High Wizard: "My Lord?"
Yeenoghu,, "striving to twist" the intent of the orders while abiding by the letter: "Hello, I am currently bound to defeat all wizards. I therefore challenge you to a game of go."
The game unfolds
Chief Gnoll High Wizard: "I stand defeated, My Lord".
Yeenoghu: "Nice... can we all eat my meat? I brought steaks and after defeating a wizard, all must eat my meat"
Chief Gnoll High Wizard: "Of course, My Lord".
Yeenoghu: "Good. I am now compelled to go now hunt another random wizard and offer him the same deal".
Chief Gnoll High Wizard casts Dispel Magic upcast to 9th level, just to be sure
Yeenoghu: "You are one worthy servant."

WBC = 0, still.

Zuggtmoy:
"Wizards challenge you, defeat them all"

Zuggtmoy, whose only mode of travel is Etherealness, switches to the Ethereal for the next 180 days. She doesn't meet any Wizard to defeat because, well, she's in the border ethereal of her lair... Spores all over the world conspire to remove the Sorcerer.

WBC = 0

Juiblex:
"Wizards challenge you, defeat them all"

Juilblex, "striving to twist", fails. There is no way he can twist that order. Unfortunately, there is also no way for him to actually defeat WIzards unless they come to his palace. So basically he screeches for the next 180 days, doing nothing.

WBC = 0

Baphomet:
"Wizards challenge you, defeat them all, turn him into dust"

Baphomet, "striving to twist" the intent of the command while respecting the letter, understand that somehow he needs to only turn one wizard to dust after defeating them all. Not very useful, but still, a proof that the wording was butchered.

Baphomet teleport to a Wizard among his servants, compelled to follow the letter of the orders he was given.



poof Baphomet materializes.
Chief Minotaur High Wizard: "My Lord?"
Baphomet,, "striving to twist" the intent of the orders while abiding by the letter: "Hello, I am currently bound to defeat all wizards, so I challenge you to a spellcasting duel to the death. I command you to cast upon me the mighty Web spell while I'll cleave you to death"
Chief Minotaur High Wizard: "I am offering my life willingly as a sacrifice, My Lord". casts Web
Baphomet: "Oh, I might be restrained, I'd better cast Dispel Magic upon myself"
Chief Minotaur High Wizard: "Yes, my Lord, your unworthy servant stands ready for being cleaved for Your glory."
Baphomet: "No, that's OK, I'm feeling better now. On the other hand, you might be interest in killing a particular person that entered my lair and cast a spell at me. I don't have many information on him, except that he tried to make a contract with a demon and thought a one-liner was enough... I surmise his INT can't be more than 10."

WBC = 0.

Minotaurs, Oozes, Undead and Gnolls are now hunting for the Sorcerer. I understand now why this post was titled "The Hunt".


In a post long ago, Alfred said that the path of Planar Binding often spelt doom for the foolish who would try to walk it without taking the necessary precautions... We have now an illustration of that, with an order that (a) results in the suicide of the commander (b) targets a series of creatures who have no real way to threaten its quarry (c) isn't prevented in any way to use its resources to end the spell by an explicit, carefully worder order.

 

[Hohige]

I would also say that the FORM of the material component doesn’t matter in terms of perception, but it can still be perceived per Jeremey Crawford’s tweets. It doesn’t matter if you are using a focus or material components, because either way they can be perceived.

I couldnt agree more.

but, its stealth casting, The enemy cant see The material component. Because The Bastion is hidden while casting The spell.

 

[Hohige]

You realize that your quote says that spells without visual effect may not be noticed by those unaffected by them. The target notices them, because they are affected.

"As noted
in the Player's Handbook, you normally don't know that a spell has been cast unless the spell produces a noticeable effect."

The victim also doesnt know.


Spells like Charm Person or Friend cantrip explicitly say that the target knows it was charmed by you.
"When the spell ends, the creature knows it was Charmed by you."

The same does not apply for Dominate Person, Planar Binding and other effects.
Since their spells are imperceptible, it is impossible to perceive.

 

[Hohige]

Let's imagine that the order wasn't so poorly worded that it identified the target with a losely defined word that encompass the sorcerer himself...



Orcus, "striving to twist" the intent of the orders given and following the letter, will first notice that he lacks any mean of fast travel, most notably planar travel. So he just decides to walk for a year, hoping to randomly stumble over a wizard by chance somewhere in the Abyss. Good luck finding him again... 180 days after that, he's free again and will exact revenge. WBC (Wizard Body Count) = 0.



Yeenoghu will first wonder why eating meat he owns would a reward for defeating all wizards; he surely can have a steak whereever he wants... oh noes! He's bound to apparently be a vegetarian until she defeats all Wizard. That son of a....

Anyway, Yeenoghu, having no way to leave the Abyss, can at least teleport to a wizard he might know near his demesne, one of his most loyal servants.

poof Yeenoghu materializes.
Chief Gnoll High Wizard: "My Lord?"
Yeenoghu,, "striving to twist" the intent of the orders while abiding by the letter: "Hello, I am currently bound to defeat all wizards. I therefore challenge you to a game of go."
The game unfolds
Chief Gnoll High Wizard: "I stand defeated, My Lord".
Yeenoghu: "Nice... can we all eat my meat? I brought steaks and after defeating a wizard, all must eat my meat"
Chief Gnoll High Wizard: "Of course, My Lord".
Yeenoghu: "Good. I am now compelled to go now hunt another random wizard and offer him the same deal".
Chief Gnoll High Wizard casts Dispel Magic upcast to 9th level, just to be sure
Yeenoghu: "You are one worthy servant."

WBC = 0, still.




Zuggtmoy, whose only mode of travel is Etherealness, switches to the Ethereal for the next 180 days. She doesn't meet any Wizard to defeat because, well, she's in the border ethereal of her lair... Spores all over the world conspire to remove the Sorcerer.

WBC = 0



Juilblex, "striving to twist", fails. There is no way he can twist that order. Unfortunately, there is also no way for him to actually defeat WIzards unless they come to his palace. So basically he screeches for the next 180 days, doing nothing.

WBC = 0



Baphomet, "striving to twist" the intent of the command while respecting the letter, understand that somehow he needs to only turn one wizard to dust after defeating them all. Not very useful, but still, a proof that the wording was butchered.

Baphomet teleport to a Wizard among his servants, compelled to follow the letter of the orders he was given.



poof Baphomet materializes.
Chief Minotaur High Wizard: "My Lord?"
Baphomet,, "striving to twist" the intent of the orders while abiding by the letter: "Hello, I am currently bound to defeat all wizards, so I challenge you to a spellcasting duel to the death. I command you to cast upon me the mighty Web spell while I'll cleave you to death"
Chief Minotaur High Wizard: "I am offering my life willingly as a sacrifice, My Lord". casts Web
Baphomet: "Oh, I might be restrained, I'd better cast Dispel Magic upon myself"
Chief Minotaur High Wizard: "Yes, my Lord, your unworthy servant stands ready for being cleaved for Your glory."
Baphomet: "No, that's OK, I'm feeling better now. On the other hand, you might be interest in killing a particular person that entered my lair and cast a spell at me. I don't have many information on him, except that he tried to make a contract with a demon and thought a one-liner was enough... I surmise his INT can't be more than 10."

WBC = 0.

Minotaurs, Oozes, Undead and Gnolls are now hunting for the Sorcerer. I understand now why this post was titled "The Hunt".


In a post long ago, Alfred said that the path of Planar Binding often spelt doom for the foolish who would try to walk it without taking the necessary precautions... We have now an illustration of that, with an order that (a) results in the suicide of the commander (b) targets a series of creatures who have no real way to threaten its quarry (c) isn't prevented in any way to use its resources to end the spell by an explicit, carefully worder order.

Man I'm surprised how you ignored everything I said at Planar Binding and Hostility.
Everything you said was a joke, like almost everything you say

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Sure
but, its stealth casting, The enemy cant see The material component. Because The Bastion is hidden while casting The spell.

Among the relevant PHB quotes, you should take into account that "hidden" doesn't mean "unnoticed". When you cast a spell, you stay hidden but you reveal your position. So under some circumstances, you can still benefits from being hidden (creatures have disadvantage attacking you) but they know your existence and position. You're trying to replicate the setup (being hidden while casting a spell) that triggers the "magical ambush" ability from the Arcane Trickster subclass, of which Jeremy Crawford explained (I won't say clarified because it was already very clear) that "The intent is that you benefit from being hidden but then reveal your position." So the material component DO matter, because it forces you to reveal your position, while staying hidden. So you can be counterspelled, for example, if someone has a reaction available.

If you cast a spell through Subtle Wish, which doesn't involve material component and whose verbal component is neutralized by subtle casting, you could remain in the shadows and not give away your position (you're just wishing in your head that Bel Shalor should be bound to you as per the standard spell upcast to 8th level).

This doesn't mean that the target can't know where you are, how many of you there are or anything, but does it mean that the subject of the spell notices an effect? It depends on the spell. A fireball has an obvious effect. A Planar Binding has not, but you have to give a perceptible order to the creature for it to have any effect. Planar Binding doesn't convey the order, you're still expected to give the actual order. And doing so, you need to be perceived by the target (who couldn't act upon an imperceptible order because it wouldn't perceive it, you know...) And that's where your plan usually fail: unless you happen to succeed on the first time you cast the spell, you give your position when you do the next step (giving your order).

 

[Hohige]

Among the relevant PHB quotes, you should take into account that "hidden" doesn't mean "unnoticed". When you cast a spell, you stay hidden but you reveal your position. So under some circumstances, you can still benefits from being hidden (creatures have disadvantage attacking you) but they know your existence and position. You're trying to replicate the setup (being hidden while casting a spell) that triggers the "magical ambush" ability from the Arcane Trickster subclass, of which Jeremy Crawford explained (I won't say clarified because it was already very clear) that "The intent is that you benefit from being hidden but then reveal your position." So the material component DO matter, because it forces you to reveal your position, while staying hidden. So you can be counterspelled, for example, if someone has a reaction available.

If you cast a spell through Subtle Wish, which doesn't involve material component and whose verbal component is neutralized by subtle casting, you could remain in the shadows and not give away your position (you're just wishing in your head that Bel Shalor should be bound to you as per the standard spell upcast to 8th level).

This doesn't mean that the target can't know where you are, how many of you there are or anything, but does it mean that the subject of the spell notices an effect? It depends on the spell. A fireball has an obvious effect. A Planar Binding has not, but you have to give a perceptible order to the creature for it to have any effect. Planar Binding doesn't convey the order, you're still expected to give the actual order. And doing so, you need to be perceived by the target (who couldn't act upon an imperceptible order because it wouldn't perceive it, you know...) And that's where your plan usually fail: unless you happen to succeed on the first time you cast the spell, you give your position when you do the next step (giving your order).

Hidden is hidden.
The Subtle Spells doesn't reveal him, It also doesn't reveal him position, his spell are imperceptible. It's unnoticed.
End.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Man I'm surprised how you ignored everything I said at Planar Binding and Hostility.
Everything you said was a joke, like almost everything you say

Because it was wrong? Hostile doesn't mean a creature has noticed you. It's its disposition toward you (friendly = want to help, neutral = doesn't care, hostile = opposes you). Saying that all the demon lords are friendly to you (or more exactly, to anyone, because you claim to be unidentified) requires a huge amount of DM fiat, which you ruled out in the thread very first posts.