D&D General Let's Talk About How to "Fix" D&D

[TwoSix]

I want to talk a little about XP, how to award it to encourage certain play styles and behaviors, and what potentially unintended consequences those choices might have.

I will say straight away that I do not like, use or believe in milestone leveling. It is the players' job to go get XP, not the DM's job to give it out. Milestone leveling is arbitrary and by definition tied to a style of play I do not enjoy. After all, you can't have milestones without a path.

All that said, rewarding XP primarily for defeating foes encourages a style of play that i don't think is particularly desirable or fun. Rather, i want an XP system that encourages exploration and clever solutions to problems. The go to answer here is usually "XP for treasure" but that too comes with its own troubles. Specifically, in 5e in particular, money is essentially useless and I am opposed to 3.x style magic item shops and crafting.

What to do?

I think the key here would be identifying "exploration moments" and "clever solutions" and somehow codifying them into something recognizable for the players to plan for.

If you're running a hexcrawl or dungeoncrawl, you could say exploring a new hex or room fully is what grants the XP. Some hexes or rooms are worth more than others, depending on the difficulty of the room. Obtaining an important clue from an unfriendly NPC without combat could be worth as much XP as a challenging combat. Maybe successful (or failed) skill checks that advance the exploration of the crawl give XP.

To reward good character thinking, maybe earning Inspiration (assuming you use it) gives XP instead if the character already has Inspiration.

I know some OSR systems have Carousing, where blowing your treasure on absolutely nothing that has utility gives you bonus XP.

Maybe a spin on some of the old training rules? Maybe spending money on advancement gives the character XP, rather than bottlenecking them until they train. Spending your money on a fancy new arcane focus and inks for your spellbook doesn't give a numerical bonus, but gives XP. Or hiring out some local militia to do some practice duels with you. Or learning a new meditative practice that gets you closer to your god.

 

[turnip_farmer]

I want to talk a little about XP, how to award it to encourage certain play styles and behaviors, and what potentially unintended consequences those choices might have.

I will say straight away that I do not like, use or believe in milestone leveling. It is the players' job to go get XP, not the DM's job to give it out. Milestone leveling is arbitrary and by definition tied to a style of play I do not enjoy. After all, you can't have milestones without a path.

All that said, rewarding XP primarily for defeating foes encourages a style of play that i don't think is particularly desirable or fun. Rather, i want an XP system that encourages exploration and clever solutions to problems. The go to answer here is usually "XP for treasure" but that too comes with its own troubles. Specifically, in 5e in particular, money is essentially useless and I am opposed to 3.x style magic item shops and crafting.

What to do?

This is already solved. Give XP for overcoming obstacles and achieving objectives.

If the objective is to get past the guards, give the players XP however they accomplish that. Kill all the guards? 300 xp. Sneak past the guards? 300 xp. Trick the guards into allowing you through? 300 xp. Isn't this example in the PHB? Or maybe the DMG?

You can give xp for obstacles and objectives where combat is not an option as well, and even refuse to give out xp for killing monsters if they failed at their objective ('you killed a bunch of cultists, but not before they sacrificed the victim. FAIL! 0xp')

You just need to make sure your players are on board with whatever the supposed objectives are. But generally they're telling you their objectives as you play - you know they went to this dungeon to find the thing, or kill the monster, or save the person, so give xp for accomplishments leading towards that goal.

 

[Reynard]

This is already solved. Give XP for overcoming obstacles and achieving objectives.

If the objective is to get past the guards, give the players XP however they accomplish that. Kill all the guards? 300 xp. Sneak past the guards? 300 xp. Trick the guards into allowing you through? 300 xp. Isn't this example in the PHB? Or maybe the DMG?

You can give xp for obstacles and objectives where combat is not an option as well, and even refuse to give out xp for killing monsters if they failed at their objective ('you killed a bunch of cultists, but not before they sacrificed the victim. FAIL! 0xp')

You just need to make sure your players are on board with whatever the supposed objectives are. But generally they're telling you their objectives as you play - you know they went to this dungeon to find the thing, or kill the monster, or save the person, so give xp for accomplishments leading towards that goal.

I think players should be largely setting their own goals, based on the environment and the hooks presented. In a mega-dungeon (which is what I am aiming for) there aren't necessarily any adventures, just an environment with some circumstances (that often change) and PC motivations (either personal or "professional). So what I am looking for is an XP award system that relies on and awards player choice.

It is very meta-game and just off the top of my head, so it might not actually work in practice, but: what if players "bid" XP, deciding how much threat they were willing to put up with for commensurate rewards (XP and treasure, since those are both tied to CR). For example, the PCs learn from the rumor mill that an acolyte from the Healing Temple has been abducted and likely is going to be sacrificed to the Goat Headed God in a secret temple somewhere in the dungeon. When the PLAYERS decide to take the quest they say, "We want this to be a CR 4 quest" because that should give them what they need to level up and/or enough gold to put a down payment on that tavern they want to open. From that point, the GM chooses an appropriate location in the dungeon for the evil cult's hideout and sets the level of the cult members and the adventure commences. Again, it is meta and I am not sure, but there might be something in there,

 

[fearsomepirate]

So, monsters supposedly have too much HP as they increase in CR, but also their AC remains the same. This causes problems. Does it?

Yes, several.

1. The book-keeping is tedious. Once the rogue is rolling 9 dice at every strike, and the paladin is regularly rolling 7 dice on a smite, and the wizard is rolling 8-10 dice on some spells...yeah, it does in fact cause a problem. It slows the game down. The book-keeping for several monsters with hundreds of hit points each is tedious, too.
   
   
2. Certain plausible-sounding things from past games are now impossible. The CR of a monster an Assassin Rogue can actually assassinate is surprisingly low (an 10th-level rogue has about a 50% chance to kill a CR 2 ogre). CR 1 & 2 monsters will last longer than it seems like they should against high-level parties.
   
   
3. NPCs aren't viable opponents. In 5e design, PCs typically have a much higher DPR/HP than monsters, typically somewhere between 50% and 100% of their HP in damage per round, depending on their powers & resources. And since the hit chance is so high, this means a party of 4 will turn most NPCs into paste by focus-firing in the first round, unless you contrive something to ensure this doesn't happen.

Basically, the HP and damage slopes both need to be shallower, and the AC slope needs to be a little steeper. We don't need to go back to ACs in the 40s and to-hit bonuses in the 30s; I just feel 5e overcorrected. At high level, players typically have to-hit bonuses between 11 and 14. It's absurd for a monster facing them to have an AC of 16.

 

[Asisreo]

Yes, several.

1. The book-keeping is tedious. Once the rogue is rolling 9 dice at every strike, and the paladin is regularly rolling 7 dice on a smite, and the wizard is rolling 8-10 dice on some spells...yeah, it does in fact cause a problem. It slows the game down. The book-keeping for several monsters with hundreds of hit points each is tedious, too.
   
   
2. Certain plausible-sounding things from past games are now impossible. The CR of a monster an Assassin Rogue can actually assassinate is surprisingly low (an 10th-level rogue has about a 50% chance to kill a CR 2 ogre). CR 1 & 2 monsters will last longer than it seems like they should against high-level parties.
   
   
3. NPCs aren't viable opponents. In 5e design, PCs typically have a much higher DPR/HP than monsters, typically somewhere between 50% and 100% of their HP in damage per round, depending on their powers & resources. And since the hit chance is so high, this means a party of 4 will turn most NPCs into paste by focus-firing in the first round, unless you contrive something to ensure this doesn't happen.

Basically, the HP and damage slopes both need to be shallower, and the AC slope needs to be a little steeper. We don't need to go back to ACs in the 40s and to-hit bonuses in the 30s; I just feel 5e overcorrected. At high level, players typically have to-hit bonuses between 11 and 14. It's absurd for a monster facing them to have an AC of 16.

But your points 2 & 3 conflict with each other. You've said that a mid-level rogue can't one-shot a low level ogre reliably, but you're also saying that NPC's die too quickly to be "viable."

If we reduce both the hit points and the damage proportionally, then everything remains exactly the same regardless. The numbers are just numbers.

As for the bookkeeping part, we've moved over to digital dice when more than 3 dice are being rolled at once so its never been an issue at my table but I know it can be annoying to add dice.

 

[turnip_farmer]

I think players should be largely setting their own goals, based on the environment and the hooks presented. In a mega-dungeon (which is what I am aiming for) there aren't necessarily any adventures, just an environment with some circumstances (that often change) and PC motivations (either personal or "professional). So what I am looking for is an XP award system that relies on and awards player choice.

It is very meta-game and just off the top of my head, so it might not actually work in practice, but: what if players "bid" XP, deciding how much threat they were willing to put up with for commensurate rewards (XP and treasure, since those are both tied to CR). For example, the PCs learn from the rumor mill that an acolyte from the Healing Temple has been abducted and likely is going to be sacrificed to the Goat Headed God in a secret temple somewhere in the dungeon. When the PLAYERS decide to take the quest they say, "We want this to be a CR 4 quest" because that should give them what they need to level up and/or enough gold to put a down payment on that tavern they want to open. From that point, the GM chooses an appropriate location in the dungeon for the evil cult's hideout and sets the level of the cult members and the adventure commences. Again, it is meta and I am not sure, but there might be something in there,

I get the intent, but it doesn't feel right to me. And it's not necessary for XP to be driven by player's goals. Like I said, you can just award XP for steps taken towards the objectives they tell you they're working towards.

Unless you don't want them to work towards those objectives, in which case there was probably some communication breakdown right at day 1.

 

[Reynard]

I get the intent, but it doesn't feel right to me. And it's not necessary for XP to be driven by player's goals. Like I said, you can just award XP for steps taken towards the objectives they tell you they're working towards.

How do you quantify those steps is the trouble I am having with that, I guess. It feels arbitrary, and I am looking for something procedural and concrete.

 

[turnip_farmer]

How do you quantify those steps is the trouble I am having with that, I guess. It feels arbitrary, and I am looking for something procedural and concrete.

Set XP rewards per level for easy, medium and hard challenges (these are already given in the rules). Defining 'easy' is of course somewhat arbitrary, but no more so than the core mechanic of the entire game (setting a DC), so that does not bother me. I guess this is not what you're looking for though.

 

[Dausuul]

How do you quantify those steps is the trouble I am having with that, I guess. It feels arbitrary, and I am looking for something procedural and concrete.

How about this: For any given objective, add up the XP value of monsters standing between the PCs and that objective. That is the XP value of achieving the objective--regardless of whether they fight the monsters, find a way past without fighting, or avoid the monsters entirely.

If the same monster is blocking multiple objectives, then its XP value gets divided evenly between them.

 

[Reynard]

Set XP rewards per level for easy, medium and hard challenges (these are already given in the rules). Defining 'easy' is of course somewhat arbitrary, but no more so than the core mechanic of the entire game (setting a DC), so that does not bother me. I guess this is not what you're looking for though.

So we have tools to determine objective rather than subjective difficulty in CR (however imprecise). It is just that the difficulty is usually applied to a single task -- this monster, that trap -- instead of an objective. So there must be a way to determine an overall "challenge" of a goal and/or locale. Based on the rate of advancement I want, maybe 10% of the value of leveling for a part whose APL matches the CR?

To use the previous example: the location that the cult has used to stage their vile ritual is a CR4 area -- meaning challenges and creatures in it will be based on CR 4 guidelines. The cult itself is a CR 3 challenge, meaning that its members and capabilities fall within the guidelines for CR 3. So, delving into the hideout area is worth 160 XP (2700-900/10) and if they succeed the goal of saving the acolyte is worth 60 XP (900-300/10) per surviving PC. Until that region of the dungeon is cleared, it is always worth 160 XP for a meaningful exploration/delve, while the goal XP is a one time reward.

Hmm.