D&D 5E Climbing a tower rules 5e

[Charlaquin]

I'm working from the premise that the natural language-based approach is meant to empower players to interact with the world in naturalistic ways, except where specified to the contrary.

I’m working from no premise, and trying to understand what the rules literally say.

My readings of all of the rules for checks seem to generally support this premise.

I don’t agree with that assessment, but if it works for you, ¯\(ツ)/¯

I definitely agree that lots of stuff in D&D is designed to work very much contrary to what we'd expect in real life, but I don't see any textual reason to think the swimming or climbing rules are designed to do so,

You mean besides the fact that they say you can swim or climb by spending two feet of movement per foot? I don’t see any way to interpret that which suggests the distance swam or climbed would be relevant in determining if failure is possible. Unless, of course, you’re working from a predetermined conclusion and looking for evidence to support it.

except to a limited extent to make these things easier to do while wearing adventuring gear.

The only rule I see that would make it relevant whether or not the character was carrying adventuring gear is the optional encumbrance rule, which could potentially reduce movement speed (making a climb or swim take longer) and/or impose disadvantage on Strength and Dexterity checks (making one less likely to succeed on climbs or swims where factors like rough water, a lack of hand and footholds, slippery surfaces, or similar make it necessary to succeed on a Strength check to succeed).

 

[Mannahnin]

I’m working from no premise, and trying to understand what the rules literally say.

Oh, you are certainly working from premises. You've expressed both premises and conclusions in your posts.

I, too, am interpreting what the rules say to understand and apply them as well as possible.

 

[Maxperson]

Correct, but the rules for swimming are more specific, and specific rules always supersede general rules in 5e.

But swimming 5 miles doesn’t have a chance of failure according to the specific rules for swimming.

No, they are not more specific. They are just as general. You have general movement rules, which include swimming and general ability check rules. Which ones apply depend on the DM.

THIS is a more specific swimming rule. Note how it includes an ability check.

"Unless aided by magic, a character can't swim for a full 8 hours per day. After each hour of swimming, a character must succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw or gain one level of exhaustion."

Swimming 5 miles takes longer than an hour. The average swimmer takes nearly an hour to go a mile. An intermediate swimmer takes about a half hour.

 

[Mannahnin]

Eh, I would certainly say the rules for swimming are more specific than the general rules for checks. But it's also clear that the examples of complications or circumstances which could call for a check aren't exhaustive, but merely illustrative examples. And have to be read and understood in the context of the general rules for checks.

 

[Maxperson]

Eh, I would certainly say the rules for swimming are more specific than the general rules for checks. But it's also clear that the examples of complications or circumstances which could call for a check aren't exhaustive, but merely illustrative examples. And have to be read and understood in the context of the general rules for checks.

I edited my post as you were responding. It shows a DMG specific swimming rule.

 

[Charlaquin]

No, they are not more specific. They are just as general. You have general movement rules, which include swimming and general ability check rules. Which ones apply depend on the DM.

The rules for movement are absolutely more specific than the “how to play” rules.

THIS is a more specific swimming rule. Note how it includes an ability check.

"Unless aided by magic, a character can't swim for a full 8 hours per day. After each hour of swimming, a character must succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw or gain one level of exhaustion."

I’m not familiar with that rule. Do you have a page number?

Swimming 5 miles takes longer than an hour. The average swimmer takes nearly an hour to go a mile. An intermediate swimmer takes about a half hour.

None of which is relevant to the discussion of how the rules of 5e say to resolve an attempt to swim 5 miles.

 

[Charlaquin]

Eh, I would certainly say the rules for swimming are more specific than the general rules for checks. But it's also clear that the examples of complications or circumstances which could call for a check aren't exhaustive, but merely illustrative examples. And have to be read and understood in the context of the general rules for checks.

I agree with that! I just don’t think that distance belongs to the category the listed examples illustrate.

 

[Maxperson]

The rules for movement are absolutely more specific than the “how to play” rules.

I’m not familiar with that rule. Do you have a page number?

None of which is relevant to the discussion of how the rules of 5e say to resolve an attempt to swim 5 miles.

Page 116

 

[Charlaquin]

Page 116

Cool. I mean, it sounds like a pretty solid rule, and also seems to support my position that swimming a great distance doesn’t require a Strength (Athletics) check but might require a Constitution saving throw to avoid gaining exhaustion, comparable to a forced march. I just missed that specific rule, and had been assuming the saving throw would be called for after 8 hours, as per the travel rules. Thanks for pointing out the correct rule there!

 

[iserith]

Cool. I mean, it sounds like a pretty solid rule, and also seems to support my position that swimming a great distance doesn’t require a Strength (Athletics) check but might require a Constitution saving throw to avoid gaining exhaustion, comparable to a forced march. I just missed that specific rule, and had been assuming the saving throw would be called for after 8 hours, as per the travel rules. Thanks for pointing out the correct rule there!

Right. If we're talking about going the distance, it's really about pushing past normal limits. The DMG sets the limit here with this rule. It's odd they go for Constitution saving throw instead of Constitution check in my view, but they must have wanted it to be in line with the rules for forced marches which is also a save.

Edit: Also interesting that the DC doesn't go up over time like forced marches do.