D&D 5E 5e and the Cheesecake Factory: Explaining Good Enough

[TheSword]

The reason Cheesecake Factory doesn’t work as an analogy for D&D is a flaw with the idea that CF is domineeringly popular restaurant... it isn’t.

[Edit] to Clarify. My point is that most people don’t chose the comfortable second place. Most people go to the restaurant they want to go to at that point.

It may be popular but it still only relates to a small slice of the restaurant business. If you add up the restaurant meals in the US and look at the proportion of covers a week in CF it will be a tiny sliver of a slice. A percent of a percent. Even Macdonald’s has a small slice restaurants and they’re by far the biggest eatery chain I can think of.

Most covers are served in independents, or small chains ... millions of them... You’ve just heard of CF because there are lots of them. It’s a successful brand sure, but its still only a small part of what people eat out. It’s success isn't particularly earth shaking, and thus the reason for that success doesn’t have to be earth shaking either.

Now compare this to the fact that the Orr group industry report shows more than half of people are playing D&D 5e on that platform. That’s not even including other editions of the brand. Just 5e. More than every other rpg system combined. You can’t explain that kind of success with a least-worst argument.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I’m yet to hear what system is fundamentally better though. This isn’t a statement asking for a big argument about which is the best TTRPG. It’s a statement to say, other systems I see discussed, as good as they are at some things usually have their own set of flaws. We can’t even agree on what would make a TTRPG the best. Let alone where games rank on those measures. I hope it’s beyond the scope of this thread.

When people say D&D is the most popular because it’s all they know (or have been brainwashed) then I get uncomfortable. I dislike snide arguments that rely on the assumption that the population is dumber than they are, and can’t make decisions ‘correctly’ and doesn’t know what they want.

In some things the market is a lousy way of deciding how good something is. However when it comes to hobby materials I reckon it’s just fine. Particularly when it’s not a flavor of the month and success is sustained.

As for the argument that I’m a rabid fanboy who only likes D&D. I’ll say that it hasn’t always been rosy for WOC and certainly not TSR. 4e - as innovative as it was - saw the company shrink financially and it was knocked off the top spot by Pathfinder. 2e/AD&D was lukewarm to me and I played more of other systems than that one. 3e was fun, but also suffered from crippling bloat and imbalance. I have no loyalty to the D&D brand beyond the quality of the product they release.

It just happens that they’re releasing good stuff now, and that makes me put away my other systems and play this one.

I managed a hobby shop for 6 years. Popular is absolutely not a good indication in hobbies. Far too many times someone would stick with a brand/option they knew when there was a product that did what they claimed to want better but required learning something new.

Popularity is a terrible metric for anything other than measuring how popular something is. There's usually a host of other reasons that aren't the same for everyone in that calculation.

 

[TwoSix]

In truth, I think that there a whole generation of gamers starting today that don't participate much in the forums because they are too busy twitching and twitting and instagrimming and click-clocking ... and for them, 5e is the bestest edition ever, because that's all they know! And that's totally cool, because everyone starts somewhere, and you never forget your first love.

I absolutely know (and play with) some of those people. 5e is an excellent launch pad into RPGs.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Maybe someone should put up a poll:

What Chain Restaurant Is 5e?

I personally don't think there is one. Because you'd need to find one that was universally known (even by people who don't go to restaurants), has almost always been the most popular and most well-attended, and whose name is pretty synonymous with the concept of the restaurant. McDonalds might be the closest, except for the whole "quality" thing.

Quite frankly... I think Coca-Cola fits the D&D analogy better than any restaurant myself. But then again, it's all just fun speculation anyway.

 

[TheSword]

I personally don't think there is one. Because you'd need to find one that was universally known (even by people who don't go to restaurants), has almost always been the most popular and most well-attended, and whose name is pretty synonymous with the concept of the restaurant. McDonalds might be the closest, except for the whole "quality" thing.

Quite frankly... I think Coca-Cola fits the D&D analogy better than any restaurant myself. But then again, it's all just fun speculation anyway.

Coca Cola is pretty good analysis - in the early 40’s for percentage market share. However only if you look at soft drinks. The reality is Coca Cola only makes up a tiny tiny slice of what people drink.

Because most people drink water.

Though at that point we’re not looking at what rpg they play but they do with free time. So Coca Cola sounds a good analogy to me.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

The reason Cheesecake Factory doesn’t work as an analogy for D&D is a flaw with the idea that CF is domineeringly popular restaurant... it isn’t.

That's not the point; it's not an analogy of market dominance. It's was something I realized ... uh ... let's say a while ago while trying to make choices with a large group of friends (in this case, dining). You see examples of this in different fields, from ranked choice voting to second-best theory in economics (when you Paretian conditions are attainable, but not desirable).

It's basically understanding that the ideal is not as important as the feasible, and working from there.

You can substitute something else for the Cheesecake Factory if you want- just the basic concept that when you get a group together, people might have a first preference that is different, but the overall group will be happy with something that satisfies all of them (the "second choice").

 

[TheSword]

I managed a hobby shop for 6 years. Popular is absolutely not a good indication in hobbies. Far too many times someone would stick with a brand/option they knew when there was a product that did what they claimed to want better but required learning something new.

Popularity is a terrible metric for anything other than measuring how popular something is. There's usually a host of other reasons that aren't the same for everyone in that calculation.

Yet another snide assumption that people are too dumb/brainwashed/lazy to realize how much better the systems are that you know.

Have you every thought that your position attempting to sell a range of RPG systems for 6 years, may have made you atypical?

I really appreciate you sharing the knowledge of that part of your career. I can actually view a lot of what you say now in a different light, now I can see that.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Coca Cola is pretty good analysis - in the early 40’s for percentage market share. However only if you look at soft drinks. The reality is Coca Cola only makes up a tiny tiny slice of what people drink.

Because most people drink water.

Though at that point we’re not looking at what rpg they play but they do with free time. So Coca Cola sounds a good analogy to me.

I drink Coke. Why? Well, I like it well enough, but mostly because I know I can buy it and while I might like other things, the effort and risk involved (I may pay for something I dislike) creates enough inertia that when I go down the softdrinks aisle, I'm looking for Coke and not looking at the other things on the shelf (Coke Zero Sugar, in particular).

In this regards, I absolutely agree that this is a good analogy for D&D -- it's likeable, comfortable, and looking for other things has an entry cost that many aren't interested in. Especially when we're getting into a completely different kind of drink, like teas.

 

[TwoSix]

Maybe someone should put up a poll:

What Chain Restaurant Is 5e?

I'd say D&D is more like ordering pizza for a get-together (Return of the Pizza Analogies!) Pizza probably isn't most people's favorite foods, but almost everyone likes some configuration of pizza (cheeseless! gluten-free crust!), and most people have no problem grabbing a slice of cheese or pepperoni even if the pizza doesn't have their favorite toppings.

 

[TwoSix]

That's not the point; it's not an analogy of market dominance. It's was something I realized ... uh ... let's say a while ago while trying to make choices with a large group of friends (in this case, dining). You see examples of this in different fields, from ranked choice voting to second-best theory in economics (when you Paretian conditions are attainable, but not desirable).

It's basically understanding that the ideal is not as important as the feasible, and working from there.

You can substitute something else for the Cheesecake Factory if you want- just the basic concept that when you get a group together, people might have a first preference that is different, but the overall group will be happy with something that satisfies all of them (the "second choice").

I will say as someone with a glut of nearby restaurants, as well as a nearby Cheesecake Factory, I have absolutely seen the Cheesecake Factory effect. "We all like it, and it has a ton of stuff!"