D&D 5E Cloak of Elvenkind - Advantage to Stealth AND -5 to passive perception?

[Flamestrike]

Alternatively, I am and simply disagree with you?

No, that's not the case.

I mean you're right in that DMs can rule whatever they want (and decide what is appropriate for hiding).

But you're wrong if you think that the rules are to be interpreted in such a way that every Man and his Dog effectively have the better part of the skulker feat.

 

[Mistwell]

A clarification that was unnecessary for people that understood the rules in the first place.

You're being needlessly insulting. It's not that you had a specially good understanding of the rules and your peers had a lesser understanding than you. It's that rules were left intentionally vague and some reasonably interpret it different than you do. Which isn't an opportunity for you to thump your chest like you've been doing.

 

[Flamestrike]

It's not that you had a specially good understanding of the rules and your peers had a lesser understanding than you.

I disagree.

I was fervently arguing this is how Stealth and Hiding works (and invisibility etc) since day 1, and it wasn't really until MM did that podcast explaining how Hiding works that people really gave up arguing that the rules work differently.

The only thing I've been wrong about with Hiding was I read the rules as not allowing a Wood Elf to hide in light natural obscurement while under direct observation, and that took a FAQ to clarify that they could indeed do just that.

@Iry here is asserting that one can remain hidden - without Skulker - in dim light, falling snow, in an empty room full of creatures with darkvision or in light rain while under direct observation, and the rules just don't support that interpretation (short of the 'DM fiat' rule).

He's also making the case that when a Hidden creature enters Dim light, that it trigggers 'Perception checks' from nearby creatures, and that also is not the rule.

The rule is you're either Hidden or you're Not, and you remain hidden until you do something to reveal yourself (such as entering an area that lacks something to hide behind, or total obscurement, or making an attack, or otherwise revealing yourself) or until your opponent takes the Search action and finds you.

There are no 'perception checks' required when a creature leaves their hiding spot (such as entering an area of dim light from a hiding place). They automatically reveal themselves by default, unless the DM rules otherwise.

 

[Mistwell]

I disagree.

Obviously.

Maybe listen more?

There are no 'perception checks' required when a creature leaves their hiding spot (such as entering an area of dim light from a hiding place). They automatically reveal themselves by default, unless the DM rules otherwise.

Right, but since the rule IS DM discretion based, you're not saying anything meaningful. There is no "default" beyond it being DMs discretion. DMs discretion isn't an exception to the rule, it is the basic rule.

Which is why I say you're not listening. You seem really determined to tell everyone how you think it works, and equally reluctant to take other perspectives on that as seriously as you want us to take your perspective.

Which makes this not a conversation. Though the premise is that this should be a conversation where you listen at least as often as you express your own thoughts.

 

[Flamestrike]

Right, but since the rule IS DM discretion based, you're not saying anything meaningful.

Then why debate any rule, seeing as all of them are DM discretion based.

Im not dissing @Iry or anyone else for ruling things however they want to rule things. In your game do what you want.

I'm just saying that the rules (read as a whole) do not support a baseline position whereby creatures can just leave places they are allowed to Hide in and just wander off, and still remain hidden, all while under direct observation.

I honestly wouldnt be surprised if @Iry also doesnt make invisible creatures take the Hide action to become hidden after becoming invisible. That's just a hunch of course.

@Iry care to elaborate?

 

[Iry]

@Iry care to elaborate?

Sure. I do feel dissed. I do require invisible characters to take the Hide action to become hidden. If they do not, others will know their square.

 

[Flamestrike]

I do require invisible characters to take the Hide action to become hidden. If they do not, others will know their square.

Then I admit I was wrong.

Three questions for you:

Scenario 1:

N [a creature without Mask of the Wild] is outside and standing in light rain [light obscurement]. N is under direct observation from another creature (C) standing 30' away.

Question 1: Can N attempt to hide from C in this situation?

Scenario 2:

N [a creature without Mask of the Wild] is hiding behind a lone tree. N steps out from behind the tree into the same light rain, and approaches C (still standing 30' away) who is looking at the tree and the direct surrounds of where he stands, facing towards the tree from 30' away (so while under direct observation from C).

Question 2: Can N remain hidden from C as he approaches him?

Question 3: If your answer to Q2 is different to Q1, why?

 

[Iry]

Scenario 1:
N [a creature without Mask of the Wild] is outside and standing in light rain [light obscurement]. N is under direct observation from another creature (C) standing 30' away.
Question 1: Can N attempt to hide from C in this situation?

Scenario 2:
N [a creature without Mask of the Wild] is hiding behind a lone tree. N steps out from behind the tree into the same light rain, and approaches C (still standing 30' away) who is looking at the tree and the direct surrounds of where he stands, facing towards the tree from 30' away (so while under direct observation from C).
Question 2: Can N remain hidden from C as he approaches him?
Question 3: If your answer to Q2 is different to Q1, why?

1: No, N would have to find heavy obscurement or total cover to Hide from C.
2: (I'm assuming N has successfully hidden) I would make C roll a Perception check with advantage, because C is directly observing that area, and the result would determine if N is still hidden.
3: If C fails their perception check with advantage, something happens that causes him to miss N. He gets rain in his eyes, he thinks he saw something to the right of the tree, but N went left, he saw N for a split second but it was so fast... where the hell did he go?! Etc.

Presumably, N promptly stabs C, or startles C and starts a Batman Conversation.
C now stands for Commissioner Gordon.

 

[Flamestrike]

2: (I'm assuming N has successfully hidden) I would make C roll a Perception check with advantage, because C is directly observing that area, and the result would determine if N is still hidden.

I understand YOU would make C 'roll a perception check as a reaction' to N moving out from his hiding spot, but that's not how the rules work.

The rules state that N is either hidden, or he's not. He remains hidden until he either does something to reveal himself (leaves his hiding spot, or makes an attack, or yells out or similar) or until C takes the Search action and finds him.

Those are the rules.

As soon as N leaves his hiding spot (he cant Hide in light obscurement remember) C is assumed to notice him because (as a general rule) creatures are aware of their surroundings and when you come out of your hiding spot, the rules default to you being automatically noticed by nearby creatures.

''In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen.''

In our example C is not distracted. He is staring straight at N's hiding spot (a lone tree) from 30' away, and will automatically see N as soon as N leaves his hiding spot and approaches him.

 

[Iry]

The rules state that N is either hidden, or he's not. He remains hidden until he either does something to reveal himself (leaves his hiding spot, or makes an attack, or yells out or similar) or until C takes the Search action and finds him.

Those are the rules.

As soon as N leaves his hiding spot (he cant Hide in light obscurement remember) C is assumed to notice him because (as a general rule) creatures are aware of their surroundings and when you come out of your hiding spot, the rules default to you being automatically noticed by nearby creatures.

''In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen.''

In our example C is not distracted. He is staring straight at N's hiding spot (a lone tree) from 30' away, and will automatically see N as soon as N leaves his hiding spot and approaches him.

N doesn't lose hidden until he is seen clearly, or makes an alerting noise. So the DM must arbitrate the circumstances. Otherwise you might end up with something silly like N standing right in front of C and doing cartwheels in dim light. A perception check is a reasonable way to arbitrate such a situation (even if the DC is Impossible, no roll required).