D&D General me finally making the big monk discussion thread

[Justice and Rule]

The path of Mercy is based on European hermeticism.

The Path of Mercy is totally stuff like acupuncture and pressure points. Being able to heal via hand presses is a huge trope in traditional Eastern Martial Arts. Could it cover something in Europe? Maybe, but it's absolutely born of eastern martial arts tropes.

The elemental monk is based on pop culture and Avatar.

Pop culture about what?

The mystic warrior is the base identity of the monk. It’s the reason the class still exists rather than having been eaten by the decades years ago.

The "mystic" part of of the warrior is flavoring for the martial arts it carries. It's there for guys to throw hands like Shaolin Masters and has been for years.

No, it isn’t. It’s a hermetic alchemist warrior, which is a European based form of mysticism. European hermeticism has roots in Jewish, Muslim, and Hindu, esoteric practice, but it is European by the time plague doctors and humors become relevant to it.

I'm sorry, it's absolutely got roots in martial arts fiction where hand presses via pressure points and ki can heal people. It's been around forever.

No, it’s a very good way to look at the class. It’s what separates it from the fighter. This is like claiming that “Rangers are about the natural world and the border between it and civilization” is too limiting, or that Paladins shouldn’t always be divine.

I disagree. It's looking at the flavor rather than the mechanics. What separates it from the fighter are its mechanics, which are based around unarmed and unarmored combat. The Fighter is based around armed and armored combat. The Paladin is based around being a semi-spellcaster with a spell-eating Nova-damage ability and auras. Rangers... well, Rangers are a terrifying hodgepodge of stuff and probably need a full rework because I honestly can't tell what the hell they are trying to do with that class anyways.

The mundane version of the Ranger is a fighter or rogue (rogue is better, they chose correctly. The Ranger is more expert than warrior in identity these days), as is the mundane version of the Paladin (the Knight Chevalier), and the mundane version of the Monk (the expert martial artist).

I mean, yeah, asking the Fighter to do any Ranger stuff that requires skills is just a mistake. The Rogue has actual identity as skill specialist that actually feels like it could cover a lot of what the Ranger is meant to do.

The Fighter taking up the "mundane" version of just about anything that has magic is just a bad idea. The Fighter shouldn't be a dumping ground for the "mundane", and it's why it's such a failure of a class to begin with.

You know mysticism isn’t exclusively eastern, yes?

Sure, but I feel like Western mysticism doesn't really follow the Monk's flavor: I feel like most mystical stuff with Western tropes are wrapped up in Clerics (Godly healers and religious people), Paladins (Individuals who are empowered by their great piety) and Warlocks (Those who have made deals with things greater than them to gain power, like devils or fairies).

The only part of that that is a monk issue is figuring out a grappler monk once you’ve “fixed” grappling. The rest is a base game issue. We should fix it. I want more fully realized grappling. I want to be able to smoothly make a monk sub that has a feature that expands Deflect Missile to melee attacks, and gets the ability to grapple and either trip, throw, lock, or pin, anytime they can make an attack.
If we also add reaction-grapple to the grappler feat, cool!

Those sound cool!

I mean I only support a spell-less ranger because the people who want it, want it bad. But if I built a spell-less ranger or Paladin, it would still be very magical, it just wouldn’t cast spells.

I mean, yeah, I'm largely talking about being a half-spell caster (and the worst half-spellcaster in the game).

To me, you’re already making a new class that isn’t the monk, which means the issue isn’t that the monk isn’t doing what it needs to, but rather that the game lacks a thing you want, and you personally see the monk as closer to it than anything else the game does have.

At which point...okay, make a variant class. Sounds fun. I’m currently building what amounts to an alt monk Swordmage, and a Captain built on a monk chassis.

I guess at this point we've reached an impasse. You emphasize the monk's mysticism, which I see as flavor, and I emphasize the martial arts, which you see as something other classes can do, but is separated because of the flavor. Not much more to discuss without going in circles.

That's the thing.

Pro wrestling isn't the f word but it is scripted. So doing it in "real life" is a bit mystical. You can't really chokeslam people.

Same with boxing people with swords. It's a bit mystical. It isn't real Mile Tyson. It's video game Punch out Mike Tyson.

Boxing is just Hajime no Ippo, where the punches are flickers and their arms whip seemingly further than they can reach because of style. All you need to do is find the right media and medium and it'll look just as mystical as any Shaw Brothers film.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

In my games, if made a few changes to the monk:

• d10 HD
• unarmed attacks starts a d6
• proficient with 1-handed weapons and Martial Arts (the weapon die doesnt increase, tho) and Flurry of Blows works with them when used 1-handed (so a player who wishes so can Attack twice with a versatile war-axe then flurry with it with one hand).
• proficient in light armor and shields.

has not been overpowered so far.

 

[Mind of tempest]

okay I see that we making progress this is good.

 

[Justice and Rule]

okay I see that we making progress this is good.

Apologies for bogging down the thread. Was not my intent.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The Path of Mercy is totally stuff like acupuncture and pressure points. Being able to heal via hand presses is a huge trope in traditional Eastern Martial Arts. Could it cover something in Europe? Maybe, but it's absolutely born of eastern martial arts tropes.



Pop culture about what?



The "mystic" part of of the warrior is flavoring for the martial arts it carries. It's there for guys to throw hands like Shaolin Masters and has been for years.



I'm sorry, it's absolutely got roots in martial arts fiction where hand presses via pressure points and ki can heal people. It's been around forever.



I disagree. It's looking at the flavor rather than the mechanics. What separates it from the fighter are its mechanics, which are based around unarmed and unarmored combat. The Fighter is based around armed and armored combat. The Paladin is based around being a semi-spellcaster with a spell-eating Nova-damage ability and auras. Rangers... well, Rangers are a terrifying hodgepodge of stuff and probably need a full rework because I honestly can't tell what the hell they are trying to do with that class anyways.



I mean, yeah, asking the Fighter to do any Ranger stuff that requires skills is just a mistake. The Rogue has actual identity as skill specialist that actually feels like it could cover a lot of what the Ranger is meant to do.

The Fighter taking up the "mundane" version of just about anything that has magic is just a bad idea. The Fighter shouldn't be a dumping ground for the "mundane", and it's why it's such a failure of a class to begin with.



Sure, but I feel like Western mysticism doesn't really follow the Monk's flavor: I feel like most mystical stuff with Western tropes are wrapped up in Clerics (Godly healers and religious people), Paladins (Individuals who are empowered by their great piety) and Warlocks (Those who have made deals with things greater than them to gain power, like devils or fairies).



Those sound cool!



I mean, yeah, I'm largely talking about being a half-spell caster (and the worst half-spellcaster in the game).



I guess at this point we've reached an impasse. You emphasize the monk's mysticism, which I see as flavor, and I emphasize the martial arts, which you see as something other classes can do, but is separated because of the flavor. Not much more to discuss without going in circles.



Boxing is just Hajime no Ippo, where the punches are flickers and their arms whip seemingly further than they can reach because of style. All you need to do is find the right media and medium and it'll look just as mystical as any Shaw Brothers film.

Yeah I think we can probably get somewhere useful if we stick to “what features can be added to the monk and what new rules for grappling can be added to the game to expand on the monk’s options and broaden the archetypes it does well”, and forget about the other aspects of the argument.

You’ll never convince me that the monk should be the singular unarmed guy, or even that it’s a good thing that they are so focused on unarmed combat, much less that the fighter somehow shouldn’t have martial arts options.

But we can work out useful tools to make the characters we want to play.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

That's the thing.

Pro wrestling isn't the f word but it is scripted. So doing it in "real life" is a bit mystical. You can't really chokeslam people.

Same with boxing people with swords. It's a bit mystical. It isn't real Mile Tyson. It's video game Punch out Mike Tyson.

This is an incredible leap. What is the reasoning that underpins this wild claim?

 

[JiffyPopTart]

This is an incredible leap. What is the reasoning that underpins this wild claim?

They are saying that in the real world Mike Tyson in his prime isn't going to punch through a metal door. In D&D it isn't beyond the realm of possibility that a monk or raging barbarian might do so.

Similarly in the real world a choke slam (or any number of professional wrestling moves) is a theatrical maneuver that looks impressive but isn't necessarily something that someone would do in an actual fight. This there is a bit of "fiction" in the universe that allows for it which they are calling mystical.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

They are saying that in the real world Mike Tyson in his prime isn't going to punch through a metal door. In D&D it isn't beyond the realm of possibility that a monk or raging barbarian might do so.

Similarly in the real world a choke slam (or any number of professional wrestling moves) is a theatrical maneuver that looks impressive but isn't necessarily something that someone would do in an actual fight. This there is a bit of "fiction" in the universe that allows for it which they are calling mystical.

None of that makes the character mystical. Captain America isn't mystical. He's just a pulp strong guy hero. A fighter.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Apologies for bogging down the thread. Was not my intent.

you mistake me, people talking get the little bit looked at.

None of that makes the character mystical. Captain America isn't mystical. He's just a pulp strong guy hero. A fighter.

so you want martial arts to be available to many characters?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

so you want martial arts to be available to many characters?

Yes. And grappling. The monk should be natural at it, and have cool benefits for doing it, and some cool ways to do it, but there is no reason a rogue shouldn’t be good at grappling. It should be a valid tactic to get sneak attack.
And unarmed strikes should be compatible with sneak attack, and divine smite, etc.

IMO “unarmed martial arts” is not a class identity, its equivalent to “being good with swords”.