D&D General me finally making the big monk discussion thread

[doctorbadwolf]

Mysticism is a different word than mystical.

I've always said that once someone cuts and pastes a dictionary definition it's Thread Over time....so I'll just add there are multiple legitimate online sources supporting the idea that mystical can be just a synonym of unexplained or mysterious.

Mysticism, on the other hand, is squarely attached to divine or spiritual meanings.

I really strongly despise pedantry, so yeah let’s leave the dictionary out of it.

There is a reason I had been saying “mystic/esoteric”. Apparently I should have continued to do so.

Either way, I doubt anyone has ever described Captain America as mystical.

So, maybe we can stop nitpicking what “mystical” means in order to try and twist my meaning into a position that supports the opposite of what it actually supports, and engage with the point.

That is, that the monk is distinguished from the fighter and rogue by being the mystic and/or esoteric warrior. To clarify further, that means a warrior associated with things like mystery cults, religious organizations, esoteric and hermetic traditions, etc, not just “warrior who does things that real people can’t do” which is covered by literally every warrior in D&D .

 

[fearsomepirate]

But you can't even do that as the monk's base damage per hit is so low.
The song says "They were chopping them up, they were chopping them down" But monks don't OHKO anyone until level 17!
Seriously, I'm beginning to think the Monk is built all wrong.

OHKs for monsters over CR 1/2 are pretty rare in 5e.

 

[Minigiant]

Either way, I doubt anyone has ever described Captain America as mystical.

Captain America seems like a strandard fighter with 20sin all physical stats to me

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Captain American seems like a strandard fighter with 20sin all physical stats to me

And yet, his strength, healing, durability, reflexes, aim, etc are all beyond the scope of reality. His superpower is basically a 2d6 hit die and 22 in all physical stats, which is subtle compared to wolverine or Spider-Man, but it’s still very much outside reality.

But it would slapstick absurd to call him a mystical hero.

 

[Flamestrike]

And yet, his strength, healing, durability, reflexes, aim, etc are all beyond the scope of reality.

Yeah no.

A high level Fighter (or Monk) can literally fall from a 10 storey building, fight off a dozen Grizzlies with his bare hands, or go toe to toe with a Balrog with nothing but a spear or his hands, and win.

They're in the same league.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Yeah no.

A high level Fighter (or Monk) can literally fall from a 10 storey building, fight off a dozen Grizzlies with his bare hands, or go toe to toe with a Balrog with nothing but a spear or his hands, and win.

What does that have to do with the idea of a mystical warrior?

They're in the same league.

Who said they aren’t?

seriously, what the hell are you walking about?

 

[Minigiant]

And yet, his strength, healing, durability, reflexes, aim, etc are all beyond the scope of reality. His superpower is basically a 2d6 hit die and 22 in all physical stats, which is subtle compared to wolverine or Spider-Man, but it’s still very much outside reality.

But it would slapstick absurd to call him a mystical hero.

His origin story is just taking a guy with bad stats and artificially boosting it with science. He is fighter or in my homebrew word, a paragon.

You wouldn''t call him a mystical hero because he isn't mystical nor using mystical martial arts. He is a boosted normal person who is trained to fight.

 

[Flamestrike]

His origin story is just taking a guy with bad stats and artificially boosting it with science. He is fighter or in my homebrew word, a paragon.

He's an Open Hand Monk, who's read Stark Industry tomes of Strength, Dex and Con a few times to get those three Stats to 22, and has the following magical item:

Vibranium shield
Legendary, requires attunement
While ostensibly looking like a shield, this unique item is actually deadly weapon. The vibranium shield is a magical one handed simple melee weapon that deals 1d8 bludgeoning damage and has the thrown (30/60) property. When thrown, it returns to your hand after the attack is resolved as long as you are not incapacitated. On a critical hit with the shield, the target must make a DC15 Strength saving throw or be knocked prone, and also be stunned until the start of your next turn. A creature larger than Large is not knocked prone (but is still stunned).

While you wield this shield, when an attacker that you can see hits you or a creature you can see within 5' of you with an attack, you can use your reaction to halve the attack’s damage against that target.

Finally, your AC increases by 2 when you have the vibranium shield attuned.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

His origin story is just taking a guy with bad stats and artificially boosting it with science. He is fighter or in my homebrew word, a paragon.

You wouldn''t call him a mystical hero because he isn't mystical nor using mystical martial arts. He is a boosted normal person who is trained to fight.

Yes, that’s my point. He’d be a Captain in my own homebrew, but in D&D as is, BM Fighter.

That he would need levels of monk in order to have a solid unarmed strike and unarmored defense is bad design. It’s less bad now that fighters can obtain an effective unarmed strike, and could use a level of Barbarian instead (shield allowed, and his Con is very very high, Rage can be reflavored more easily IMO than the entire flavor of monk and fits how hard to injure he is, and his feats of strength), but it’s still bad that you need to look to monk to make a brawler or pugilist.

 

[Minigiant]

He's an Open Hand Monk, who's read Stark Industry tomes of Strength, Dex and Con a few times to get those three Stats to 22, and has the following magical item:

Yes, that’s my point. He’d be a Captain in my own homebrew, but in D&D as is, BM Fighter.

In D&D, Captain America is a BM Fighter could uses weapons.

The D&D assumption of heroic warriors is that they use weapons.
The Marvel assumption for heroic warriors is that they fight unarmed vs humans and weapons vs robots/monsters/toughguys.

In D&D Captian America wouldn't ave a decent unarmedattack andwould deal the majority of his damage as weapon attacks from his shhield or a magic melee weapon.

If D&D was made for the genre assumptions of Marvel, unarmed strikes would be a feature in the weapon list or on multiple classes. The number or actual monks would be few and limited to those with martial arts training beyond the norm for supers.

In D&D, unarmed strikes and unarmored defense from a humanoid is beyond abnormal and rare for use as primary offense and defense for a warrior. Even the brawler fighter is assumed to use weapon in a dungeon. They might be able to throw a good punch or fit in street clothes but that's a back up.

In D&D, you need mysticalpowers to bring unarmed strikes up to the level of a sword. And the the same is kinda hinted for fighting unarmored.