D&D General me finally making the big monk discussion thread

[Greg K]

I am trying to get @SkidAce to repost his final martial arts feat rules since they are no longer on his site. Here is an earlier draft from several years ago that he posted here on ENWorld. One change I think he made (and is not reflected in the early draft) was removing grappling as an automatic benefit and making it a maneuver per a suggestion in the thread. It is a good place to start and I know that, just recently, Reddit poster KibblesTasty did something similar to this feat as a variant Monk ability to replace Stunning Strike.

There is, however, going to be a need for granting ki abilities (which can also be given alternate names) to fuel supernatural abilities associated with styles from various cultures as well as new non-ki techniques.

 

[Stalker0]

there is no reason a rogue shouldn’t be good at grappling. It should be a valid tactic to get sneak attack.

Give the rogue just a bit of strength and expertise in athletics. Congrats you have a rogue that is good at grappling...better than most fighters.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Give the rogue just a bit of strength and expertise in athletics. Congrats you have a rogue that is good at grappling...better than most fighters.

And then what? See the rest of the statement you quoted, about Sneak Attack.

 

[Minigiant]

This is an incredible leap. What is the reasoning that underpins this wild claim?

The idea that mundane martial arts of wrestling or boxing would not be able to keep up with fantasy expectations.

A mundane boxers can't really punch through dragon scales.

You really can't do pro wrestling moves to an unwilling opponent.

Like @Sabathius42 said, there would need to be some mysticism in it to keep up with weapons and armor. Because people use swords and chainmail for a reason.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

None of that makes the character mystical. Captain America isn't mystical. He's just a pulp strong guy hero. A fighter.

You are conflating the definition of mystical as divine or magical origin with the more general idea of something that doesn't have a basis in reality.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

You are conflating the definition of mystical as divine or magical origin with the more general idea of something that doesn't have a basis in reality.

No, you are conflating mysticism with “things that don’t exist in reality”. I’m quite aware of the difference between the two.

 

[Minigiant]

Fundamentally, i don't think a purely 1970s kung fu movie version of the monk deserves to be a class. It's overall too narrow of anarchetype.

Therefore the class needs to be broadened to all forms of mystical martial arts in order to be deserving a spot as a class. The monkis not like a class like the ranger,which more or less exists because still D&D substitutes magic for a complex skill and crafting system.

Fighter would handle the "mundane".
Monk would handle the "mystical".

Any fighting style that could not stand up nor created in a "mundane" form would be upgraded to a mytical form and placed in the monk. So unarmed martial arts, boxing, wrestling, drunken boxing, elemental bending, simple weapon fighting, and the like would be placed in the monk. Some consideration if the fighting style matches that of the barbarian in look and practice.

 

[Flamestrike]

Fundamentally, i don't think a purely 1970s kung fu movie version of the monk deserves to be a class. It's overall too narrow of anarchetype.

And yet we have 'Barbarians' and 'Paladins' when Fighters already exist, and a class called a Druid (which is a very narrow archetype of the Cleric).

Monk is the 'primarily unarmed martial arts' guy, ranging from heroes of Wuxia films all the way to Thai Kickboxers, Ninjas, Bruce Lee, the Karate Kid and so forth.

Its a common enough genre to have earnt its own class. I dont see many 'Druid' films, or Druid protagonists in fiction for example.

The Monk (as it stands) is fine. My issues with the class are its design where it gets is 'oomph' from Stunning fist which can range from nearly broken in some encounters/ campaigns to next to useless in others (as opposed to other martials which have a reasonably reliable DPR to gauged them on) which is why these Monk threads exist.

IMG I simply increased the Martial Arts damage die by 1 step across the board (1d10 becomes 2d6, and I changed capstone damage to 2d8), and increased Stunning strike Ki cost to 2, and limited it to 1/turn.

That gives a much more reliable DPR that competes with Barbs, Paladins, Rogues and Fighters across all 20 levels, and lessens the reliance on Stunning fist.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

No, you are conflating mysticism with “things that don’t exist in reality”. I’m quite aware of the difference between the two.

Mysticism is a different word than mystical.

I've always said that once someone cuts and pastes a dictionary definition it's Thread Over time....so I'll just add there are multiple legitimate online sources supporting the idea that mystical can be just a synonym of unexplained or mysterious.

Mysticism, on the other hand, is squarely attached to divine or spiritual meanings.

 

[Minigiant]

And yet we have 'Barbarians' and 'Paladins' when Fighters already exist, and a class called a Druid (which is a very narrow archetype of the Cleric).

I'mnot saying that Monks don't deserve to be a class.
I'm saying that it like barbarians, paladins, and druids need to have more archetypes added to it and that I don't get the resistence to it.

The Druid now encompasses Asian, African, Australian, North Armerican, and South American naturalist priests in its fold.

So the monk should expand as well. However it cannot if it is hardcoded like you stated on FOB and Stunning Strike Dependency. Not every mystical martial artist relies on making a bunch light attacks a turn and stun locking foes.

Heck it doesn't even match old kung fu show/movies as the movie monk usually tanked 10 mooks before fighing the rival in a drawn out battle.

Punch Mook 1
Kick Mook 2
Chop Mook 3
Combo Mook 4
Kick Mook 5
Punch Mook 6

But you can't even do that as the monk's base damage per hit is so low.
The song says "They were chopping them up, they were chopping them down" But monks don't OHKO anyone until level 17!
Seriously, I'm beginning to think the Monk is built all wrong.

IMG I simply increased the Martial Arts damage die by 1 step across the board (1d10 becomes 2d6, and I changed capstone damage to 2d8), and increased Stunning strike Ki cost to 2, and limited it to 1/turn.

That gives a much more reliable DPR that competes with Barbs, Paladins, Rogues and Fighters across all 20 levels, and lessens the reliance on Stunning fist.

IMG, monks choose a form. Each form has their own AC calculation, base attack pattern, ki improvement, and ultimate ki attack.

Air gets Flurry of Blows, Step of the Wind, and Fierce Hurricane
Earth gets Stone Strike, Move like Mountain, and Stunning Fist
Water gets Crashing Suplex, Diving Kick, and Tsunami Cutter