So, Wandavision?

[Eric V]

As far as justice is concerned . . . . what exactly needs to happen to Wanda? Who has the authority and power to arrest, try, and punish her for her crimes against the people of Westview? What would be the appropriate punishment? What about the significant mitigating circumstances of her apparent disassociative personality and not being fully aware of what she was doing? Could Wanda somehow offer restitution to the people of Westview on her own? What would that look like? Granted, these are all questions to be answered by the writers of WandaVision, or the follow-up in later MCU shows . . . . but this sort of thing is a problem in comic-book stories in general. How do you bring our modern sense of justice to super-powered beings?

Imagine a more mundane parallel . . . a woman hurts others while acting out in extreme grief, trauma, and a dissassociative personality break, but minus the super-powers. What would be appropriate? Jail? Counseling? Some sort of mental institution? We don't handle these sorts of things in the real world all that well, add super-powers to the mix and I can see why the writers punted the issue other than Wanda's walk-of-shame through the townsfolk towards the end.

Wanda obviously needs to be incarcerated with a ton of therapy. Think the Raft combined with a top-tier mental institution.

In real life, people with mental illness who commit crimes a fraction as bad as Wanda's aren't just let go. They get institutionalized, where their freedoms are curtailed so that the damage they inflict can be contained. It's worth noting that, at the end, she's still not trying to get therapy...she's off trying to become more powerful. What happens the next time she feels bad?

Now, who could bring her in? No idea. My issue is that apparently that's a non-issue. No one seems to be thinking that anything needs to be done (hence, Rambeau's catastrophically dumb line). I appreciate the punt metaphor you used, but...in football we punt when the opposing team has stopped us from what we are trying to accomplish. Who was stopping the writers here? In other words, why did they write themselves into a situation where this happens and all logical questions about accountability get swept under the rug?

Justice is definitely a theme in the MCU. It's not hugely different from our own: people need to be accountable for their actions.

I mean, unless you're an Avenger? Maybe Zemo was right after all.

 

[Tonguez]

Wanda isn't facing any serious consequences for her treatment of the Westview townsfolk . . . . yet. This story isn't over, even if the television series is. Still, something would have been nice within the context of WandaVision, you're not the only one to feel dissatisfaction on this point, I've read it in several online reviews.

But she certainly made a sacrifice. One only possible in comic book stories. Wanda could have continued to power the hex and control all within in order to keep Dream Vision and their kids alive, but she was able to finally see what she was doing and choose to end the hex instead.

As far as justice is concerned . . . . what exactly needs to happen to Wanda? Who has the authority and power to arrest, try, and punish her for her crimes against the people of Westview? What would be the appropriate punishment? What about the significant mitigating circumstances of her apparent disassociative personality and not being fully aware of what she was doing? Could Wanda somehow offer restitution to the people of Westview on her own? What would that look like? Granted, these are all questions to be answered by the writers of WandaVision, or the follow-up in later MCU shows . . . . but this sort of thing is a problem in comic-book stories in general. How do you bring our modern sense of justice to super-powered beings?

Imagine a more mundane parallel . . . a woman hurts others while acting out in extreme grief, trauma, and a dissassociative personality break, but minus the super-powers. What would be appropriate? Jail? Counseling? Some sort of mental institution? We don't handle these sorts of things in the real world all that well, add super-powers to the mix and I can see why the writers punted the issue other than Wanda's walk-of-shame through the townsfolk towards the end.

Yeah the Sokovia Accords were created specifically because of Wanda and in Wanda’s case the Scorcerer Supreme exist for the purpose of policing criminals/threats with Magic powers - like Wanda. There are facilities like the Raft and the hospital seen in New Mutants* designed for Powered Individuals (albeit they tend to be easily escaped)

Allowing for her trauma, Wanda should probably be in a ‘mental’ institution designed with strongly warded magical barriers - I’m sure the scorcerers training Dr Strange could help.

*okay not canon but afaik the only magical prison seen in the Mavel-adjacent properties so far

 

[MarkB]

Now, in order for that to happen for Wanda, there would have to be a state-sanctioned expert in chaos magic and sorcery. Otherwise, any "consequences" she faces will be an unjust trial at best, and violent retribution at worst. There is no real way for her to face genuine justice, outside of her putting in the work herself to make amends, or someone like Strange coming to put her down if she goes the other way.

All things considered in the Marvel universe, it doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility for Dr Strange to become a state-sanctioned expert in chaos magic and sorcery.

 

[Eric V]

I have a hard time taking seriously a comment on realism by someone who thinks that what happened on the ferries was unrealistic.

Ha. It was noble. It was what should happen. However...

I know more than a few cops and prosecutors, though...and they assure me that the most likely scenario was someone grabbing the detonator before the Joker could even finish. Unless you also walk in that world, I'll say their experiences give them a more informed opinion than either of us.

 

[Davies]

I know more than a few cops

What a surprise. One should be judged by the company one keeps.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

All things considered in the Marvel universe, it doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility for Dr Strange to become a state-sanctioned expert in chaos magic and sorcery.

Not at all. I'd say it's damn near guaranteed to never happen, unless things change a lot first.

Ha. It was noble. It was what should happen. However...

I know more than a few cops and prosecutors, though...and they assure me that the most likely scenario was someone grabbing the detonator before the Joker could even finish. Unless you also walk in that world, I'll say their experiences give them a more informed opinion than either of us.

Sure, cops tend not to be noble, and their biases against anyone who has ever even been accused of a crime, much less done time, is well known for a reason. I also, unfortunately, know more than a few cops.

Had it been cops on one boat, and inmates on the other, the only determinor of who got blown up would be who was faster on the draw.

But that wasn't the situation, and most cops would hesitate to blow up a boat full of commuters long enough for someone with a conscience to step in. It's not the only possible outcome, by any means, but there isn't anything unrealistic about it.

 

[Rune]

This doesn't make her heroic. It doesn't even make her good. It makes her barely decent.

Heroic is exactly what that makes her, in the moment. Also good, as I understand the word (willing to sacrifice self for others). Whether or not she continues to make heroic/good choices remains to be seen.

That does not mean, however, that she should not face consequences for her bad actions (although, no one around at the end of the episode was actually in a position to enforce them – except maaaybe Monica). I would argue that, in a just world, at least some of those consequences would amount to time served, since she’s already spent years paying for Crossbones’ crime.

More generally, though, the thrust of your arguments seem to be that the bad that a character does in the past invalidates the good that they do in the future. At least in balance? Yes?

To which I respond: that just isn’t how Marvel does things. If you want villains (and heroes) who are unchanging archeypes, there are comics that do that (cough...DC), but Marvel has a long history of growing villains into heroes (and vice versa). It seems evident that the MCU will do likewise.

 

[Dire Bare]

What a surprise. One should be judged by the company one keeps.

Not cool.

We're here to debate and explore a comic-book show, not insult police officers and those who count them among friends.

We have serious problems with police culture and police brutality in our society, but to casually toss off a comment implying cops are bad people, as are those who associate with them . . . not cool.

 

[Davies]

We're here to debate and explore a comic-book show, not insult police officers and those who count them among friends.

When the friend of the police has also cited Zemo, Striker and Ross as admirable figures, if anything, the police are the ones who are tainted by association with them.

 

[Eric V]

Heroic is exactly what that makes her, in the moment. Also good, as I understand the word (willing to sacrifice self for others). Whether or not she continues to make heroic/good choices remains to be seen.

That does not mean, however, that she should not face consequences for her bad actions (although, no one around at the end of the episode was actually in a position to enforce them – except maaaybe Monica). I would argue that, in a just world, at least some of those consequences would amount to time served, since she’s already spent years paying for Crossbones’ crime.

More generally, though, the thrust of your arguments seem to be that the bad that a character does in the past invalidates the good that they do in the future. At least in balance? Yes?

To which I respond: that just isn’t how Marvel does things. If you want villains (and heroes) who are unchanging archeypes, there are comics that do that (cough...DC), but Marvel has a long history of growing villains into heroes (and vice versa). It seems evident that the MCU will do likewise.

Nah, it doesn't make her heroic. Simply stopping hurting others out of your own self-centredness is not heroic. It's minimum decency.

And no, that's not the thrust of my argument. Sorry if it came off that way. When the episode ended, my kids and I looked at each other like...that's it? I mentioned before that it's that the issue isn't even brought up. Monica just delivers her poor line and Wanda flies away...leaving behind all her victims with no recourse, no justice...nothing. Now they all need therapy because Wanda (for whatever reason) decided not to get any.

Do I think Disney will "grow heroes (in this case, Wanda) into villains?" I am afraid I don't. I think we're expected to just gloss over this...the "punt" Dire Bare mentioned before. After all, Tony faced nothing for Ultron.

As an aside, I am not sure the DCEU has unchanging heroes...Cavill's Kent goes through a lot of changes, and I appreciated his performance as a result.