D&D General Nobody likes an edition warrior.

[TwoSix]

So people would have liked 4E more if the powers were written in Gygaxian prose?

They would have liked it more if it looked more like 5e. Or more like 3.5.

 

[Zardnaar]

So people would have liked 4E more if the powers were written in Gygaxian prose?

Probably not it needed to be a descendent of 3.5 though.

 

[Hussar]

The issues I had with 4E had little or nothing to do with presentation. It was the concept that everyone (to me) had supernatural abilities, everyone followed the exact same AEDU structure.

From what I read, that wasn't the intent. Only wizards were supposed to have an AEDU structure but due to deadlines they had to get something out.

But, again, this isn't true. You have the entire Essentials line of classes which didn't use AEDU structure. Never minding that the class structure in 5e is identical to each other. Everyone gets stuff at the same levels. All the classes of the same levels have the same structure in 5e. And, of course, there's the fact that of the entire PHB, only 3 classes aren't supernatural. A ratio that has hardly gotten better as time has progressed.

This, I think, is exactly the point I was making above. 5e does mostly what 4e does, but, isn't quite so in your face about it so, it gets a pass. It's truly funny in a rather sad way.

 

[Zardnaar]

But, again, this isn't true. You have the entire Essentials line of classes which didn't use AEDU structure. Never minding that the class structure in 5e is identical to each other. Everyone gets stuff at the same levels. All the classes of the same levels have the same structure in 5e. And, of course, there's the fact that of the entire PHB, only 3 classes aren't supernatural. A ratio that has hardly gotten better as time has progressed.

This, I think, is exactly the point I was making above. 5e does mostly what 4e does, but, isn't quite so in your face about it so, it gets a pass. It's truly funny in a rather sad way.

No one cared by the time essentials landed.

Wasn't 3.5 descended. Whatever 4E was offering D&D players didn't want it.

 

[Oofta]

But, again, this isn't true. You have the entire Essentials line of classes which didn't use AEDU structure. Never minding that the class structure in 5e is identical to each other. Everyone gets stuff at the same levels. All the classes of the same levels have the same structure in 5e. And, of course, there's the fact that of the entire PHB, only 3 classes aren't supernatural. A ratio that has hardly gotten better as time has progressed.

This, I think, is exactly the point I was making above. 5e does mostly what 4e does, but, isn't quite so in your face about it so, it gets a pass. It's truly funny in a rather sad way.

Essentials was too little too late. Had they had the options of essentials, well there were still other issues and it's water under the bridge now.

While I do personally wish there were more mundane options, between the mundane fighter and rogue options you have quite a few options.

But there were other issues with 4E as well, power structure was just one.

I think the people behind 4E had some good ideas and 5E took some of the good while tossing most of the bad. The game structure, goals and tools are significantly different. I just don't see a reason to spell them out in detail.

 

[GreyLord]

In Retrospect the worst problem with 4e was 3e.

What happened with 3e was that Hasbro via WotC learned the wrong lesson.

3e threw out the baby with the bathwater. The changed D&D to a completely, and largely incompatible game with both D&D (BX, BECMI, RC) and AD&D. The message was that people LOVED what happened. An audience that was seen to be less than a million players (800K?? or less, maybe even as low as 500K) grew to over 5 million players!

It appeared that making an edition so absolutely different and incompatible with what came before made it grow.

So they did the same thing with 4e. They learned the lesson with 3e that drastic changes from what used to be the core game previously (even if later supplements hinted at what would occur with 3e, the same way 9 swords indicated what would come with 4e) was massively popular.

People think the edition wars were big with 4e...they never saw how bad they were with 3e. Most of the audience was lost by the later years of 2e (people grew up, didn't have time to play, got bored, moved onto different things, moved onto different rpgs...etc) most of the audience had been lost from AD&D, but, looking at the numbers...3e had TWENTY MILLION LESS players than AD&D and D&D did. (estimated 5 million players of 3.X).

3e to 4e is thought to have only lost 2 to 3 million players. That is still a massive percentage of the players though.

Thing is...they were not wrong.

They did the same thing with 5e.

BUT, it wasn't the change that is the problem. People seem to gobble it up. They don't like something too close to what came before with D&D apparently. 3e to 3.5 didn't bring in more players, nor did 4e to 4e essentials. However, do a change that is very drastic...people seem to love it. 3e gained over 4 million players. 5e has gained over 10 million players. What was different then between how they did 3e/5e and 4e?

What was OFF with 4e was the marketing. You normally don't win over people by telling them that they were idiots for playing the older version of the game. People don't appreciate that. They do not appreciate being told the game that they played in the past was horrible and it's now fixed. It's a GOOD way to make people angry at you. It's a good way to make people upset at you.

WotC made ALL THE WRONG MOVES when it announced, advertised, and marketed 4e. That's the BIGGEST problem I see with 4e.

They learned their lesson and with 5e you saw the exact opposite. Sure, some of the promotion was flat out lies (e.g. you can play this in compatibility with any version of D&D ever, including D&D and RC...etc)...but the idea was to make people who played D&D...any version of D&D...think that they were friendly to them and that they wanted them to play the new version of D&D (5e). Many of the design ideas were already hinted at (as was with 3e with the options books, 4e with the 9 swords) in the essentials lines (backgrounds, sub-classes, etc), but the difference this time was instead of putting down and insulting older editions...they welcomed all comers.

And, I'd say the lesson was well learned. They learned it wasn't the change people hated (and it wasn't, 5e shows that people still love change and incompatibility more than a continuation of rule sets), but the marketing.

 

[Zardnaar]

In Retrospect the worst problem with 4e was 3e.

What happened with 3e was that Hasbro via WotC learned the wrong lesson.

3e threw out the baby with the bathwater. The changed D&D to a completely, and largely incompatible game with both D&D (BX, BECMI, RC) and AD&D. The message was that people LOVED what happened. An audience that was seen to be less than a million players (800K?? or less, maybe even as low as 500K) grew to over 5 million players!

It appeared that making an edition so absolutely different and incompatible with what came before made it grow.

So they did the same thing with 4e. They learned the lesson with 3e that drastic changes from what used to be the core game previously (even if later supplements hinted at what would occur with 3e, the same way 9 swords indicated what would come with 4e) was massively popular.

People think the edition wars were big with 4e...they never saw how bad they were with 3e. Most of the audience was lost by the later years of 2e (people grew up, didn't have time to play, got bored, moved onto different things, moved onto different rpgs...etc) most of the audience had been lost from AD&D, but, looking at the numbers...3e had TWENTY MILLION LESS players than AD&D and D&D did. (estimated 5 million players of 3.X).

3e to 4e is thought to have only lost 2 to 3 million players. That is still a massive percentage of the players though.

Thing is...they were not wrong.

They did the same thing with 5e.

BUT, it wasn't the change that is the problem. People seem to gobble it up. They don't like something too close to what came before with D&D apparently. 3e to 3.5 didn't bring in more players, nor did 4e to 4e essentials. However, do a change that is very drastic...people seem to love it. 3e gained over 4 million players. 5e has gained over 10 million players. What was different then between how they did 3e/5e and 4e?

What was OFF with 4e was the marketing. You normally don't win over people by telling them that they were idiots for playing the older version of the game. People don't appreciate that. They do not appreciate being told the game that they played in the past was horrible and it's now fixed. It's a GOOD way to make people angry at you. It's a good way to make people upset at you.

WotC made ALL THE WRONG MOVES when it announced, advertised, and marketed 4e. That's the BIGGEST problem I see with 4e.

They learned their lesson and with 5e you saw the exact opposite. Sure, some of the promotion was flat out lies (e.g. you can play this in compatibility with any version of D&D ever, including D&D and RC...etc)...but the idea was to make people who played D&D...any version of D&D...think that they were friendly to them and that they wanted them to play the new version of D&D (5e). Many of the design ideas were already hinted at (as was with 3e with the options books, 4e with the 9 swords) in the essentials lines (backgrounds, sub-classes, etc), but the difference this time was instead of putting down and insulting older editions...they welcomed all comers.

And, I'd say the lesson was well learned. They learned it wasn't the change people hated (and it wasn't, 5e shows that people still love change and incompatibility more than a continuation of rule sets), but the marketing.

They never claimed 5E was compatible just there's something for everyone.

It's pure PR but you can see it in the PHB archetypes. Here's your simple fighter, here's your complex one.

 

[billd91]

Essentials was too little too late. Had they had the options of essentials, well there were still other issues and it's water under the bridge now.

Too right it was too late. We started playing 4e in the summer of 2008 and kept at it an increasingly disappointed 9 months. We had already left 4e well in the rearview mirror more than a year before the more palatable Essentials came out.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

let's ignore the vampire and start a business in the small town making healing potions!"

You 100% can do that just as much in 4e as in any edition.

I played and ran 4e in exactly the same way I run and play 5e.

The biggest difference is that 5e powers look like older edition class abilities, even when they're obviously parallel to 4e abilities (I'm looking at cantrips here, specifically.) Not presenting the powers in boxes that look obviously technical helps, too. 4e should have doubled down on presenting a classic aesthetic to help sell its larger mechanical changes.

Yep. The completely inexplicable view that martial classes were supernatural didn’t help, but yeah had the powers of 4e been presented like force powers and manuevers and such in Star Wars Saga Edition, a lot of people wouldn’t have bounced off the PHB.

No one cared by the time essentials landed.

Wasn't 3.5 descended. Whatever 4E was offering D&D players didn't want it.

lol you know the game literally was played by a huge number of people, right?

It got canned because it was the focal point of a rift in the community, not because it wasn’t being played and purchased.

 

[Zardnaar]

You 100% can do that just as much in 4e as in any edition.

I played and ran 4e in exactly the same way I run and play 5e.

Yep. The completely inexplicable view that martial classes were supernatural didn’t help, but yeah had the powers of 4e been presented like force powers and manuevers and such in Star Wars Saga Edition, a lot of people wouldn’t have bounced off the PHB.




lol you know the game literally was played by a huge number of people, right?

It got canned because it was the focal point of a rift in the community, not because it wasn’t being played and purchased.

Keep telling yourself that. Sure some people played it but Pathfinder was the thing they chose.