D&D 5E A different take on Alignment

[Laurefindel]

I'm thinking about replacing the traditional D&D alignments of Law/Chaos and Good/Evil with Cat-Person vs. Dog-Person.

I’m a Cat/Beatles person. My wife is Cat/Elvis, so that sometimes creates friction. When my Dog/Elvis father-in-law comes for supper however, all hell breaks loose. It’s better when my Dog/Neutral sister-in-law is there, but still...

And then the kids say I’m definitely a Picard guy while their mom is Kirk. I have no idea what that means! Help please

 

[Chaosmancer]

Any group that is bound by a code, structure, or hierarchy would fall under 'Lawful' on the Law vs Chaos scale.

A gang could be Chaotic. A crime family or organized mob like behavior? Lawful.

So, if the internal structure matters, why did it come up that the Sons of Anarchy would be chaotic for disregarding societies laws?

In fact, many gangs have quite a bit of structure, hierarchy and codes/rules, so what makes them more Chaotic?

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Being lawful has nothing to do with respect. It's a belief system. If someone believes in order and structure, they are lawful. The Mafia is the classic example of Lawful Evil. And the Mafia would have shot a gang that just went around engaging in wanton violence and arson in the head for causing trouble and disrupting things. A gang member who believes in order and structure and follows the Don, would not also engage in wanton violence and arson.

Watch Good Fellas some time. Joe Pesci's character is CE and eventually gets offed by his compatriots for just that reason. No room for chaos in the Mafia.

I believe there were a few "insurance policies" sold on the back of wanton violence and arson. I didn't say they did it without orders, I said they enjoyed engaging in it.

So, enjoying and even reveling in chaotic actions, but being otherwise lawful would mean... what?

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

And then the kids say I’m definitely a Picard guy while their mom is Kirk. I have no idea what that means! Help please

That’s it!

replace the alignment system with the “Star Trek Captain” system.

 

[Scribe]

So, if the internal structure matters, why did it come up that the Sons of Anarchy would be chaotic for disregarding societies laws?

In fact, many gangs have quite a bit of structure, hierarchy and codes/rules, so what makes them more Chaotic?

To me, unless ones structure is 'might makes right' then its not Chaotic in the "C" sense, but it could be seen as chaotic, by those outside the structure.

Just my view on it.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Why cant a LG character live in any other alignment society?

If you can only be lawful with respect to society and you can only be good in respect to society, then we run into problems nearly immediately.

Because can you be Lawful Good in Prince John's England, where the lawful thing is to follow a potential usurper who is taxing the commonfolk to death and the Good thing is to break the law?

Let us take a tyranical state where "the trains run on time" and the people aren't too oppressed. Like Doctor Doom and Latveria. Can you be lawful good in that society, if you can only define law and good based on the society around you? After all, the tax money of Latveria is (partially) going to fund a supervillain who wants to take over the world, but who is also the rightful king of the country whom the people love (and they do love him, canonically, its what makes him an interesting villain)


And this was the point I was getting too, if you can only define Lawful and Good in the context of if you are following ideals of the society around you, than any country that isn't Lawful and Good is going to cause friction because the Good thing might be to break the law.

And, most examples people would likely be giving me involve some outside code or similar to be the source of the "Law"


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Because someone can view the world as a clockwork mechanism that follows a set of rules without agreeing that the laws of the land aligns with those rules. They follow a code, perhaps one handed down or even simply one that they read about.

They follow a set of rules because following those rules comes naturally to them. If they follow the ancient order of Herbacians, the Grand High Basil deserves his respect. The pirate king? Not so much, although they are far more likely to view someone with a title favorably than someone that is chaotic.

There's no conflict. Someone that is lawful will likely try to follow the laws of the land, as long as those laws don't force them to break their own personal code of honor.

So a person who believe the world works like a kingdom with the Gods acting as a Congress can't be Lawful?

And a personal code prevents you from being Chaotic? So, if I had a code that was something like "Never eat Fish on Friday. Never resheath your sword without killing someone. Always bow when you walk past a church. Always pay back insult with injury." Then they would be a Lawful individual?

 

[Chaosmancer]

To me, unless ones structure is 'might makes right' then its not Chaotic in the "C" sense, but it could be seen as chaotic, by those outside the structure.

Just my view on it.

See, but now I have to dig into this. I am currently reading a series where there is an organization that believes Might makes Right. They rule a country and we were just introduced to their rules for dueling.

If you lose a duel as a challengee, you swap ranks with the person who dueled you. If you lose a duel as the challenger then you are forbidden from making further challenges until someone else challenges you first. Potentially leaving you stuck in a position. And there are a bunch of other sub rules. It is a bit of a complex system.

Lawful or Chaotic? It is "Might makes Right" but there are also clear rules involved in how people are meant to interact with that concept.

 

[Scribe]

No hard and fast rule, but i'd say if you have a system of duels and challenges and rules around it? Lawful.

 

[Flamestrike]

But if following the law doesn't make you Lawful, then how is it a useful metric?

Lawful has nothing to do with following the law.

A Lawful PC is disciplined and respects honor, family, order and tradition.

Anakin Skywalker for example was not Lawful. He was Chaotic. Eddard Stark OTOH, was Lawful.

For a character who is Neutral with respect to Chaos/ Law look at Peter Parker/ Spiderman.

You will find correlation often between [a Lawful person] and [a Law abiding person], however the latter is not a precondition for the former. Many vigilante characters like Batman or the Punisher are highly Lawful, being disciplined, honorable and valuing order and tradition, despising chaos, and desiring order above all else, yet they work outside of the law, breaking it often.

 

[Maxperson]

I believe there were a few "insurance policies" sold on the back of wanton violence and arson. I didn't say they did it without orders, I said they enjoyed engaging in it.

So, enjoying and even reveling in chaotic actions, but being otherwise lawful would mean... what?

If they are only doing it because they are ordered to and not because it's their nature, then even if they enjoy it they are not chaotic. Chaotic evil people aren't going to care if they are ordered to or not, they will do it anyway and get shot by the Don.

 

[Hriston]

In short, no. Behavioral descriptors based on what the individual’s or group’s role is in the adventure are preferable. If you are playing true sandbox it is better to use the Reaction table (hostile to helpful) than use artificial alignments for initial behavior towards the PCs. That way PCs can never predict reactions with meta knowledge like alignments.

I use alignment (greatest difference between the alignments of the parties involved) as a negative modifier to the reaction roll, so that conflict arises in the game more readily when opposing alignments are present. I also raise social interaction DCs based on difference in alignment.

Also, the alignment of a PC affects the DC of Charisma checks s/he makes. Lawful PCs get lower DCs while chaotic PCs get higher ones.