D&D 5E A different take on Alignment

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Two reasons:

If other words will do as well, that tends to undercut the argument that there is some distinctively useful purpose being served by alignment descriptors.

Choosing from the whole of the English language, rather than 9 labels, increases the power of the personality/motivation label.
So one distinctive purpose of alignment is that the words from alignment have a shortcut that the absence of alignment doesn't have. LN tells people what those words are without them needed to have them read off. Second, it's not a dichotomy. You don't get alignment OR the rest of the English language. You get both. So all words(no alignment) or all words and a shortcut(alignment). The latter is more useful, even if not tremendously so. And again, having alignment helps new players who may be having trouble, so that's another distinctive purpose of alignment.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
You seem to be confused. Upthread someone ( @Helldritch? @Oofta? both?) said that alignment is distinctively useful as a shorthand guide to the GM in playing an NPC or creature. I am disputing that claim, in a two-pronged fashion:

(1) Using a wider range of descriptors is more useful;
But involves a lot more work. I don't want to have to read every little monster to find out the myriad of words used and then try to remember them while remembering everything else I'm dealing with. Alignment plus maybe a quirk or two if necessary is far easier and more useful to me.
(2) Alignment isn't very useful (as per my examples of the two dragons).
You're example was overly restrictive. Alignment hasn't been that restrictive since before 3e.
 

You seem to be confused. Upthread someone ( @Helldritch? @Oofta? both?) said that alignment is distinctively useful as a shorthand guide to the GM in playing an NPC or creature. I am disputing that claim, in a two-pronged fashion:

(1) Using a wider range of descriptors is more useful;

(2) Alignment isn't very useful (as per my examples of the two dragons).
Anakin Skywalker (Start of RotS):, Male human Jedi 7/ Ace Pilot 2/ Jedi Knight 4

Alignment CG
Bond: I am the strongest Jedi that ever lived. The council are holding me back
Ideal: I am reckless and overconfident (Chaotic)
Flaw: I am terrified of losing things I love.

The above is not enough to go on as a snapshot of the above character?

What about this one:

Darth Vader (Start of ANH):, Male human Jedi 7/ Ace Pilot 2/ Jedi Knight 4/ Sith Apprentice 3/ Sith Lord 3

Alignment CE
Bond: I must follow the Emperor, until I can betray him and take his place
Ideal: The power to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the dark side of the force (Evil)
Flaw: Underneath all my hatred, a part of me is still good.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
The only place this ever comes up is in forums. 🤷‍♂️
I am honestly glad this has been your experience.

I would not wish on anyone the incredibly frustrating problems I have had with actual player-group alignment arguments. It really, well and truly is NOT solely confined to academic arguments between forum-goers who have never slung dice at the same table.

Why? It's not as if alignment has anything other than a very small handful of artifacts that even uses it. It literally doesn't matter if the DM and players don't agree on alignment. The disagreement has no effect on the PCs.
Since 4e defanged it and 5e mostly preserved that, yes. But in editions prior to 4e, and in things like Pathfinder, it is and has been a real issue in actual games I have played.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Since 4e defanged it and 5e mostly preserved that, yes. But in editions prior to 4e, and in things like Pathfinder, it is and has been a real issue in actual games I have played.
I didn't have any issues in 3e outside of Paladins, and 1e/2e cured most people of wanting to play them, so I didn't see that many. There were definitely more mechanics, such as detection and protection spells, but those caused the DM more trouble than the players, since it was the players that tended to use those spells much more often.
 

I would not wish on anyone the incredibly frustrating problems I have had with actual player-group alignment arguments.
Why tolerate them?

'This is my campaign, this is how it is, this is why, if you don't like it, someone else can DM'.

The arguments only ever come when [murderhobo PC]s player wants to torture or murder or worse to some random NPC, and realizes they have 'LG' on their character sheet. Then comes the justifications.

Unless it's a 'Good PC' only heroic campaign, there is no need to argue. I advise the player the act is evil, ensure they want to proceed, make a note of what occurred if so, and the game goes on.
 

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
I don't think out approaches to alignment are identical, but in respect of what I've quoted I think we're entirely ad idem!
I don't know about you, but it took me a long time to get here. I actually used to think of D&D (back in the '80s) as something like a setting-agnostic system. It's only after digging into those early books with fresh eyes after many years that I came to realize that the game Arneson and Gygax created is set in a world where all their influences from swords and sorcery and medieval high fantasy are in play. So Alignment isn't a way of understanding characters from fiction that was put in to help players role-play. It's part of the setting of D&D which is a place where Moorcockian Law and Chaos are really at odds with one another. That's why I use alignment in my D&D games, because when I play D&D, I want to play that game. I want to play the most D&D version of D&D I can play.
 


pemerton

Legend
I don't know about you, but it took me a long time to get here. I actually used to think of D&D (back in the '80s) as something like a setting-agnostic system. It's only after digging into those early books with fresh eyes after many years that I came to realize that the game Arneson and Gygax created is set in a world where all their influences from swords and sorcery and medieval high fantasy are in play. So Alignment isn't a way of understanding characters from fiction that was put in to help players role-play. It's part of the setting of D&D which is a place where Moorcockian Law and Chaos are really at odds with one another. That's why I use alignment in my D&D games, because when I play D&D, I want to play that game. I want to play the most D&D version of D&D I can play.
My pathway was different.

Like you, I used to think of D&D (back in the 80s) as a setting-agnostic system. After reading an excellent article in Dragon 101 called "For King and Country" which through both abstract argument and a worked example showed how alignment makes a mockery of a whole range of standard settings, I took up its advice and dropped alignment from my FRPGing.

For nearly 20 years from 1990 my FRPG of choice was Rolemaster - which presents itself as, and which I mostly treated as, setting-agnostic. We never used alignment in our RM games, although from time-to-time would engage in the pastime of imputing alignment descriptors to the various PCs who passed through that game (Penn was CN; Xanthos was LE; Xialath was probably NE; Luvian and Tabernacle were perhaps NG; etc). I used D&D settings for those RM games - the World of Greyhawk for one, and Kara Tur for another. The GH material worked fine shorn of alignment - St Cuthbert works as an object of religious veneration by simple peasantry and townsfolk without needing the LG(N) label; Hextor is a six-armed destructive force who is implacably opposed to Heironeous without needing the LE label; etc. The Kara Tur/OA material likewise worked fine shorn of alignment - we had gods and spirits and dragons and constables of Hell and lords of the animal kingdoms and the like, and the various intricate relationships between them, without needing to give them alignment labels.

When I started a 4e D&D campaign in 2009 the players stuck alignment labels on their PCs as the rules told them too. I wrote alignment labels on my NPCs and creatures as the rules told me to. The player-side labels I left to the players to worry about: four were unaligned (a paladin of the Raven Queen; a cleric/ranger serving the Raven Queen; an invoker/wizard serving a variety of gods including the Raven Queen, Ioun, Pelor, Bane and Vecna; a drow sorcerer/bard devoted to Corellon Lorethian and that Elven gods one-time ally Chan, Queen of Good Air Elementals); one was good (a cleric/fighter of Moradin who ended up taking Torog's place as god of imprisonment and punishment). It was those other allegiances that really drove the campaign - eg the invoker/wizard and the drow sorcerer would frequently clash over law/civilisation vs chaos. The alignment labels served as loose personality descriptors that also played a role (a secondary one) in locating the PCs within the cosmological context that their more particular affiliations also related to.

As a GM, I used the labels that were on my NPCs/creatures to make sense of their cosmological orientation and as loose personality descriptors in the way discussed in this thread. I think the game would not have lost anything had they not been there - when I read that Orcs are destructively-inclined worshippers of Gruumsh it doesn't really tell me anything further to label them CE - but they were harmless enough. I felt the game overall had a strong law vs chaos feel to it (but not quite Morcockian because not grim enough) but the alignment labels were probably following rather than leading in this respect.
 


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