D&D General class consept question?

[Mind of tempest]

But the concepts do make sense. It’s perfectly sensible for faith to grant magic.

faith alone does near nothing only with a lot of will behind it does anything happen.
how can faith alone do it?

I’ve heard that in certain systems, friendship grants magic.

this we have also heard of it does not work in most realities.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

faith alone does near nothing only with a lot of will behind it does anything happen.
how can faith alone do it?

If magic can be generated by words, will and waving a wand, why wouldn't prayers, piousness and willpower produce it as well?

this we have also heard of it does not work in most realities.

But in the reality of that system, it does.

 

[bedir than]

how do oath alone give magic that makes no sense in anything, even the land of the law.

When someone is so dedicated to their cause they are able to reach within and be more than just themselves. We see this in charismatic leaders in reality, and we see this in the legends of Roland. We see this as well in some of the Knights of the Roundtable.

The consummate believer in the power of the Crown is able to inspire their allies in a fight (Bless).
Those dedicated to the Ancient ways and the power of nature are able to Detect Good & Evil or Purify Food & Water.
The true believer that within everyone is the path to Redemption is able to calm souls and settle them into relaxation.

This particular peoples are powered by the Cause of Righteousness and reach into a realm that is Beyond the Noble Life. They are committed, whole-hearted, singular -- all the more powerful warriors because of it.

Fantasy fiction and our own real world myths are filled with the inspirations for Paladins, all who do things that are supernatural. The reality of D&D has always represented this. Fifth edition just chooses a new way to touch those powers.

 

[Charlaquin]

faith alone does near nothing only with a lot of will behind it does anything happen.
how can faith alone do it?

There are stories from every world religion of people of faith performing miracles. In the fictional world of D&D, clerics can reproduce such miracles. You can accept that or reject it, but that’s how the game works.

this we have also heard of it does not work in most realities.

I hate to break it to you, but D&D is not reality. What works or doesn’t work in reality has no bearing on what works or doesn’t work in the game. If it did, there would be no magic in the game, faith-based or otherwise.

 

[Mind of tempest]

There are stories from every world religion of people of faith performing miracles. In the fictional world of D&D, clerics can reproduce such miracles. You can accept that or reject it, but that’s how the game works.

I hate to break it to you, but D&D is not reality. What works or doesn’t work in reality has no bearing on what works or doesn’t work in the game. If it did, there would be no magic in the game, faith-based or otherwise.

yes but faith in some higher being who is letting them, faith in a sandwich would not let you split a sea.

it still needs an internal logic or even causality to come in to question and next thing you know people give birth to their own parents which will make setting consistency a herculean task, and game ability near impossible.

When someone is so dedicated to their cause they are able to reach within and be more than just themselves. We see this in charismatic leaders in reality, and we see this in the legends of Roland. We see this as well in some of the Knights of the Roundtable.

The consummate believer in the power of the Crown is able to inspire their allies in a fight (Bless).
Those dedicated to the Ancient ways and the power of nature are able to Detect Good & Evil or Purify Food & Water.
The true believer that within everyone is the path to Redemption is able to calm souls and settle them into relaxation.

This particular peoples are powered by the Cause of Righteousness and reach into a realm that is Beyond the Noble Life. They are committed, whole-hearted, singular -- all the more powerful warriors because of it.

Fantasy fiction and our own real world myths are filled with the inspirations for Paladins, all who do things that are supernatural. The reality of D&D has always represented this. Fifth edition just chooses a new way to touch those powers.

what you seem to be describing is not divine magic at all with more in common with chi or psionics the magics from within.

the ancient way mentioned tending to be either a generic version of the assumed wisdom of elder generation or concept of lost religions, for example the literal druids.

define righteousness?

I am not saying myth is not filled with paladins but context tends to mean it is not their faith alone but what it is placed in.

 

[Charlaquin]

yes but faith in some higher being who is letting them, faith in a sandwich would not let you split a sea.

Faith in a sandwich wouldn’t give you special powers in D&D either. It’s either faith in a deity or faith in one of set of concepts, such as Life, Light, Nature, etc. Basically the same concepts the Gods draw from for their portfolios.

it still needs an internal logic or even causality to come in to question and next thing you know people give birth to their own parents which will make setting consistency a herculean task, and game ability near impossible.

First of all, no it doesn’t. That’s a preference, but there’s no requirement that a fictional magic system have any internal logic. Second of all, D&D’s magic system does have internal logic. Just because you don’t like it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t make sense.

 

[GreyLord]

Not D&D, but in Castles and Crusades, after I think, the 3rd or 4th printing, illusionists now could also cast healing spells along with illusions.

 

[bedir than]

what you seem to be describing is not divine magic at all with more in common with chi or psionics the magics from within.

I didn't claim divine magic at all. I am, again, pointing out that dedication to an OATH is the power behind a Paladin's spells. The connection to lore, myth, and history is obvious. At this point the claimed ignorance in what simple words mean is a reinforcement that this conversation isn't about D&D spell use or support classes that aren't clerics.

 

[TwoSix]

yes but faith in some higher being who is letting them, faith in a sandwich would not let you split a sea.

Depends on the setting. In Eberron, it's pretty much stated that faith alone is enough to channel power from other sources (typically from Siberys). There's no need for a "deity" to be either source or intermediary.

what you seem to be describing is not divine magic at all with more in common with chi or psionics the magics from within.

Faith as a type of psionics is an excellent way to view it to my mind, actually.

I am not saying myth is not filled with paladins but context tends to mean it is not their faith alone but what it is placed in.

 

[Don Durito]

The idea that faith alone grants power (rather than the power being a reward from the deity for your faith) has always been kind of silly. It also doesn't make a lot of sense in a setting where the gods actually exist and you can go talk to them.

What you logically would end up with is something like the Athar in Planescape who declare that since the power comes from faith and not from the gods, then the gods must be false, and the being who grants power from faith must therefore be some greater and more distant being and force.

Which ends up of course with more interesting setting (albeit the polytheism starts breaking down except as multiple approaches to the the singular divine) in which religion is divided up by philosophical faiths rather than by gods.

But it doesn't really make sense to have faith in "light". What you would have is faith in "Light as an emanation of the divine" - and if you don't associate that divine with any of the existing gods, then obviously that divine must be something else further and greater and beyond the "gods".