D&D General class consept question?

[Mind of tempest]

Faith in a sandwich wouldn’t give you special powers in D&D either. It’s either faith in a deity or faith in one of set of concepts, such as Life, Light, Nature, etc. Basically the same concepts the Gods draw from for their portfolios.


First of all, no it doesn’t. That’s a preference, but there’s no requirement that a fictional magic system have any internal logic. Second of all, D&D’s magic system does have internal logic. Just because you don’t like it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t make sense.

how is light or nature a better concept than a sandwich? they are all equally mindless, we are not in disagreement on deities.

it is a very useful preference for any sitting in which is going to be used to solve problems to stop magic solves anything, also makes spell and class design easier as things are far more structured, does not need to be flesh out all at the beginning.

Not D&D, but in Castles and Crusades, after I think, the 3rd or 4th printing, illusionists now could also cast healing spells along with illusions.

interesting, seems very random for them to have it but interesting.

I didn't claim divine magic at all. I am, again, pointing out that dedication to an OATH is the power behind a Paladin's spells. The connection to lore, myth, and history is obvious. At this point the claimed ignorance in what simple words mean is a reinforcement that this conversation isn't about D&D spell use or support classes that aren't clerics.

but how does an oath do that? faith is unreplicable for me but I need at least a hand wave for it to work, plus a paladin is primarily a frontline fighter with healing closer to a bonus, I was asking more for primarily support but with some ability to go on the offensive which is the slight difference between clerics and paladins.

Depends on the setting. In Eberron, it's pretty much stated that faith alone is enough to channel power from other sources (typically from Siberys). There's no need for a "deity" to be either source or intermediary.


Faith as a type of psionics is an excellent way to view it to my mind, actually.

I would accept it in eberron as that was part of its setting goals, it just seems like it breaks the fantasy of the divine casters in all other settings as it applies for the reason that gods are real and will back you up.

the later point goes over my head.

 

[TwoSix]

the later point goes over my head.

With psionics, you concentrate real hard and something happens in the universe. With faith magic, you believe real hard and something happens in the universe.

All fantasy magic, zoomed out, works the same way: Sentient Will, expressed through symbols ->[Black Box] -> Change in the world. All magical systems do is define the limitations of the Black Box.

 

[Charlaquin]

how is light or nature a better concept than a sandwich? they are all equally mindless, we are not in disagreement on deities.

It isn’t a better concept, it’s just a concept that aligns with a cleric domain.

it is a very useful preference for any sitting in which is going to be used to solve problems to stop magic solves anything, also makes spell and class design easier as things are far more structured, does not need to be flesh out all at the beginning.

Ok, dude. Have fun playing whatever system you prefer.

 

[Laurefindel]

yes but faith in some higher being who is letting them, faith in a sandwich would not let you split a sea.

it still needs an internal logic or even causality to come in to question and next thing you know people give birth to their own parents which will make setting consistency a herculean task, and game ability near impossible.

warning: long post. But worth it

Originally, the (vancian) internal logic went something like this:

• Gods are beings. Powerful beings, but singular and individual beings nonetheless.
• God have magical powers. One of those powers is to give mortals the ability to use some of their own magical powers.
• To receive godly magical powers, a mortal needs to deserve it. That's where faith comes into play. If you show devotion and faith, you are admitted into that god's clergy and can henceforth receive magic. It's like a treehouse club really; you need to follow the rules to be allowed in. It is implicit that the gods can tell if you are faking it. Faith must be genuine.
• Gods don't just grant wishy-washy magical powers; they give packaged magical effects called "spells".
• The cleric receives all their spells at once through prayer and other acts of devotion. Then the cleric needs to be able to hold them until they want to cast the said spells.
• Spells are difficult to "hold" for mortals, and some are harder and more complex to hold than others. Typically, the more powerful the spell, the more complex (i.e. high level) the spell is.
• The more experienced the cleric, the more spells and the more complex spells they can hold to cast them later (i.e. spell slots).
• Once the spell is cast, the cleric must pray/perform religious duties again to receive new spells after a period of rest (1 night of rest by standard rules). They can keep the spells they are holding already, or release them and hold new ones.

So in a classic OD&D style, faith does not allow you to part the sea. Faith (and experience) allows you to download a "part the seas" spell from your patron deity's server, and then cast it when you need the seas to part. Spell preparation is a bitch.

The internal logic is pretty sound and straightforward.

In 5e, you can ask your god to intervene on your behalf when you're in doo doo. Should the deity answer the plea (1% chance per level in 5e), the DM decides how the deity intervenes, and may decide that your god parted the seas to let you and your people pass. But technically, you didn't do it. Your god did because you have faith, and than allowed you in its threehouse club. No faith? Tough luck.

Cleric still cast spells too, but vancian magic disintegrated a little with each passing editions. So now it's more something like this:

• Gods are powerful magical beings and can give mortals some of their magical powers, or let mortals access their divinity like a font of magical power to draw from.
• Not only gods can do that, things like nature, a trinity or pantheon of gods, or forces of nature can act as divine fonts of magic to draw from too.
• Gods and divine fonts of magic now only grant magic "patterns" or "templates" (spells), but these are now independent from the raw magical energy required to make magical effects out of these spell patterns.
• Spells are useless without spell slots, and spell slots are (mostly) useless without these spell templates. Yet, some classes like the paladin use spell slots as fuel for something else than spells (smite).
• Cleric still need to "allowed-in" to have access to spell templates. Faith in your patron god is the de facto door to divine spells, but other forms of devotions work too (i.e. reverence of nature, adherence to a sacred oath etc).
• Once you have access to the library of divine spells from a god or divine or source of magic, you get spell template that are "weak" enough that no spell slots are needed to cast them (i.e cantrips) or in addition to spells (i.e. channel divinity and other class abilities).
• The template of a spell still needs to be downloaded from the divine server, but you, the cleric, construct the spell on the spot from your magical mojo (spell slot). Where spell slots come from is a bit fuzzy... But as long as you have the template, you can recreate the spell indefinitely (as long as you have enough mojo, i mean, spell slots). No template? No spellcasting. Spell preparation is still a bitch, but a nicer one.
• Some spell templates are permanently imprinted in your mind as long as your are part of the club (domain spells). As long as you have spell slots, you can cast those spells; they are always prepared.
• Some spell templates are still easier to master than others, and experience is still needed to get them. Note that this is independent from the experience needed to get more potent spell slots. You can possess high-level spell slots and no high-level spell templates to cast them with.

From where I stand from, it still makes logical sense.

So in 5e, you do not really get your magical powers from faith; faith is the encryption key that will allow you to access the divine spell server to be able to cast spells with your spell slots. If you lose faith, you can still learn arcane magic and use your spell slots for that.

 

[Charlaquin]

warning: long post. But worth it

Originally, the (vancian) internal logic went something like this:

• Gods are beings. Powerful beings, but singular and individual beings nonetheless.
• God have magical powers. One of those powers is to give mortals the ability to use some of their own magical powers.
• To receive godly magical powers, a mortal needs to deserve it. That's where faith comes into play. If you show devotion and faith, you are admitted into that god's clergy and can henceforth receive magic. It's like a treehouse club really; you need to follow the rules to be allowed in. It is implicit that the gods can tell if you are faking it. Faith must be genuine.
• Gods don't just grant wishy-washy magical powers; they give packaged magical effects called "spells".
• The cleric receives all their spells at once through prayer and other acts of devotion. Then the cleric needs to be able to hold them until they want to cast the said spells.
• Spells are difficult to "hold" for mortals, and some are harder and more complex to hold than others. Typically, the more powerful the spell, the more complex (i.e. high level) the spell is.
• The more experienced the cleric, the more spells and the more complex spells they can hold to cast them later (i.e. spell slots).
• Once the spell is cast, the cleric must pray/perform religious duties again to receive new spells after a period of rest (1 night of rest by standard rules). They can keep the spells they are holding already, or release them and hold new ones.

So in a classic OD&D style, faith does not allow you to part the sea. Faith (and experience) allows you to download a "part the seas" spell from your patron deity's server, and then cast it when you need the seas to part. Spell preparation is a bitch.

The internal logic is pretty sound and straightforward.

In 5e, you can ask your god to intervene on your behalf when you're in doo doo. Should the deity answer the plea (1% chance per level in 5e), the DM decides how the deity intervenes, and may decide that your god parted the seas to let you and your people pass. But technically, you didn't do it. Your god did because you have faith, and than allowed you in its threehouse club. No faith? Tough luck.

Cleric still cast spells too, but vancian magic disintegrated a little with each passing editions. So now it's more something like this:

• Gods are powerful magical beings and can give mortals some of their magical powers, or let mortals access their divinity like a font of magical power to draw from.
• Not only gods can do that, things like nature, a trinity or pantheon of gods, or forces of nature can act as divine fonts of magic to draw from too.
• Gods and divine fonts of magic now only grant magic "patterns" or "templates" (spells), but these are now independent from the raw magical energy required to make magical effects out of these spell patterns.
• Spells are useless without spell slots, and spell slots are (mostly) useless without these spell templates. Yet, some classes like the paladin use spell slots as fuel for something else than spells (smite).
• Cleric still need to "allowed-in" to have access to spell templates. Faith in your patron god is the de facto door to divine spells, but other forms of devotions work too (i.e. reverence of nature, adherence to a sacred oath etc).
• Once you have access to the library of divine spells from a god or divine or source of magic, you get spell template that are "weak" enough that no spell slots are needed to cast them (i.e cantrips) or in addition to spells (i.e. channel divinity and other class abilities).
• The template of a spell still needs to be downloaded from the divine server, but you, the cleric, construct the spell on the spot from your magical mojo (spell slot). Where spell slots come from is a bit fuzzy... But as long as you have the template, you can recreate the spell indefinitely (as long as you have enough mojo, i mean, spell slots). No template? No spellcasting. Spell preparation is still a bitch, but a nicer one.
• Some spell templates are permanently imprinted in your mind as long as your are part of the club (domain spells). As long as you have spell slots, you can cast those spells; they are always prepared.
• Some spell templates are still easier to master than others, and experience is still needed to get them. Note that this is independent from the experience needed to get more potent spell slots. You can possess high-level spell slots and no high-level spell templates to cast them with.

From where I stand from, it still makes logical sense.

So in 5e, you do not really get your magical powers from faith; faith is the encryption key that will allow you to access the divine spell server to be able to cast spells with your spell slots. If you lose faith, you can still learn arcane magic and use your spell slots for that.

This is a really interesting analogy, and really drives home for me that I just don’t like Vancian magic on any level. Conceptually it’s certainly interesting but it isn’t at all what I want out of a magic system in a fantasy setting. Good for exploring the implications of “what if magic worked this way?” Not so good for creating a mythical feel to magic. And mechanically I’ve just never liked it.

 

[Don Durito]

Creating a magical system that genuinely feels magical is really hard in rpgs. The very process of systematising magic often turns it into something that feels a lot more like technology.

Possibly introducing a greater element of randomness or interpetation would do it - but I think the reliability of magic is one of the main reasons people like it. It tends to give you permission to do just do a thing.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

what you seem to be describing is not divine magic at all with more in common with chi or psionics the magics from within.

We're talking 5e D&D here.

What exactly is the distinction in the rules?

Why can't you play a cleric whose powers come from their inner spirituality and control of Chi?

 

[Mind of tempest]

We're talking 5e D&D here.

What exactly is the distinction in the rules?

Why can't you play a cleric whose powers come from their inner spirituality and control of Chi?

how much do I care about doing it properly in this hypothetical?

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

how much do I care about doing it properly in this hypothetical?

What would be doing it properly?

 

[Mind of tempest]

What would be doing it properly?

look I am not an expert on the matters of inner spirituality and control of Chi what I know coming largely from television but mere refluffing of the cleric would not work it would end up some crazy MAD multi class which is just horrible to get working.