D&D General class consept question?

[Mind of tempest]

have we ever had something like a cleric or druid but not based on religion or inherent spirituality?

I know we have bards and artificers but the latter are not necessarily an option on all worlds and the former just confuses me on how it even works.

any ideas?

 

[JEB]

The ur-priest, from 3E's Book of Vile Darkness and Complete Divine, comes to mind - they hate the gods but can steal divine magic to use for themselves. Not quite sure that's what you're looking for, though.

 

[TheSword]

All across 3e it was possible to have clerics that followed fundamental forces rather than entities. Light, dark, death, life.

With simplified domains in 5e I would say it is even more possible.

There was a whole chapter in the 3e book Elder Evils about a creature reviled for revealing this fact to mortals. And Obyrith Demon called Sertrous.

 

[Shiroiken]

have we ever had something like a cleric or druid but not based on religion or inherent spirituality?

You'd have to clarify what you mean by this, but if you're looking for a class idea the two strongest sources would be the NPC classes for 1E written up in The Dragon and 3E. Thanks to the OGL, there are a billion classes from 3E, covering just about every concept imaginable.

 

[Mind of tempest]

The ur-priest, from 3E's Book of Vile Darkness and Complete Divine, comes to mind - they hate the gods but can steal divine magic to use for themselves. Not quite sure that's what you're looking for, though.

seems to likely to get the party in trouble, or too much like the warlock.

All across 3e it was possible to have clerics that followed fundamental forces rather than entities. Light, dark, death, life.

With simplified domains in 5e I would say it is even more possible.

There was a whole chapter in the 3e book Elder Evils about a creature reviled for revealing this fact to mortals.

no, I just hate that as a setting idea as people do not have faith in concepts like that no one has that kind of faith in light nor does it explain how they would be getting the power in the first place.

You'd have to clarify what you mean by this, but if you're looking for a class idea the two strongest sources would be the NPC classes for 1E written up in The Dragon and 3E. Thanks to the OGL, there are a billion classes from 3E, covering just about every concept imaginable.

the rough party function as the person who can provide similar spell need for healing and restricting but without inherent need for the worship of something.

 

[jgsugden]

"Like a cleric or a druid but not based on religion or inherent spirituality" can mean a lot of things. Do you mean a healer/support class? Or something else?

We've had the Warlord in 4E which filled a similar role without magic. Bards are arcane healers (as a divine soul sorcerers and Celestial Patroned Warlocks (although they have obvious divine touches)).

There is nothing forcing a cleric (or druid) to worship a particular God. They may draw power from the universe as a whole, and their faith might be a respect for the whole universe.

In my primary homebrew, Ao is the first God (yes, the name is stolen), and is essentially the universe. Ao's existence is so foreign to humanoids that it does not translate into him being a being of any type. As such, he is more of an abstract force, but he does have clerics that draw power from him. There are no teachings for Ao, no specific prayers. It is a very abstract faith.

Additionally, druids have absolutely nothing to do with religion in my campaign setting. They can worship a God, just as a fighter can, but their power is derived entirely from the Positive and Negative Energy Planes. Nature magic comes from the core of life and death. As the Feywild and Shadowfell are both transitive planes I connect to these two mysterious planes, the abilities of the druid align well with the underlying premise - it all fits nicely. Technically these planes are also abstract Gods, in the same nature as Ao, so in a sense there is a divine aspect to it, but it is so far removed fromwhat a cleric is that they seem entirely independent of faith.

 

[JEB]

the rough party function as the person who can provide similar spell need for healing and restricting but without inherent need for the worship of something.

3E's Miniatures Handbook had a class literally called the Healer, which is explicitly contrasted with the "dogmatic view of faith" possessed by clerics.

 

[TheSword]

no, I just hate that as a setting idea as people do not have faith in concepts like that no one has that kind of faith in light nor does it explain how they would be getting the power in the first place.

Lol, what do you mean no? It was RAW in 3e that clerics can follow concepts to gain your powers. You might not like it, but that was an accepted route to divine power.

Being a champion of the light or of death, or knowledge seems like a reasonable approach to me. People were worshiping the sun long before someone thought to name it Hathor. People were worshipping fertility long before anyone came up with the name Venus.

You do you though.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

have we ever had something like a cleric or druid but not based on religion or inherent spirituality?

I know we have bards and artificers but the latter are not necessarily an option on all worlds and the former just confuses me on how it even works.

any ideas?

The Eberron books suggest using the cleric class to represent a character with a powerful Dragonmark of Healing and similar.

You have Celestial Warlocks, Divine Soul Sorcerors, and I think at least one Monk Subclass which has a pool of healing.
Paladins do not have to have any connection with religion.

I can't think of many worlds where Artificers wouldn't fit.
And or course, Bards, as another classic party-support option, can be pretty good healers.

 

[Mind of tempest]

"Like a cleric or a druid but not based on religion or inherent spirituality" can mean a lot of things. Do you mean a healer/support class? Or something else?

We've had the Warlord in 4E which filled a similar role without magic. Bards are arcane healers (as a divine soul sorcerers and Celestial Patroned Warlocks (although they have obvious divine touches)).

There is nothing forcing a cleric (or druid) to worship a particular God. They may draw power from the universe as a whole, and their faith might be a respect for the whole universe.

In my primary homebrew, Ao is the first God (yes, the name is stolen), and is essentially the universe. Ao's existence is so foreign to humanoids that it does not translate into him being a being of any type. As such, he is more of an abstract force, but he does have clerics that draw power from him. There are no teachings for Ao, no specific prayers. It is a very abstract faith.

Additionally, druids have absolutely nothing to do with religion in my campaign setting. They can worship a God, just as a fighter can, but their power is derived entirely from the Positive and Negative Energy Planes. Nature magic comes from the core of life and death. As the Feywild and Shadowfell are both transitive planes I connect to these two mysterious planes, the abilities of the druid align well with the underlying premise - it all fits nicely. Technically these planes are also abstract Gods, in the same nature as Ao, so in a sense there is a divine aspect to it, but it is so far removed fromwhat a cleric is that they seem entirely independent of faith.

healer/support class yeah but not one who is useless in other areas.

I just generally dislike the draw from the universe with faith thing I just do not get it nor am I able to convincingly replicate faith for rp of any kind beyond trust in people.

I thank you for your examples I just do not see how they would not just be the same thing as a wizard?

3E's Miniatures Handbook had a class literally called the Healer, which is explicitly contrasted with the "dogmatic view of faith" possessed by clerics.

I have heard of them but they suck in both non-healing and are thematically light wights.

Lol, what do you mean no? It was RAW in 3e that clerics can follow concepts to gain your powers. You might not like it, but that was an accepted route to divine power.

Being a champion of the light or of death, or knowledge seems like a reasonable approach to me. People were worshiping the sun long before someone thought to name it Hathor. People were worshipping fertility long before anyone came up with the name Venus.

You do you though.

but they more likely thought the sun could be bargained with thus it was the lowest variant of a deity, but how does faith grant power I do not get it?

The Eberron books suggest using the cleric class to represent a character with a powerful Dragonmark of Healing and similar.

You have Celestial Warlocks, Divine Soul Sorcerors, and I think at least one Monk Subclass which has a pool of healing.
Paladins do not have to have any connection with religion.

I can't think of many worlds where Artificers wouldn't fit.
And or course, Bards, as another classic party-support option, can be pretty good healers.

warlocks are honestly more similar thematically to clerics than people would think, I just hate sorcerers it is complex but I hate them, the monk is nice but not a full caster.
the eberron idea you gave is nice but I hate it for the reason I hate Divine Soul Sorcerors.

darksun would not have artificers and it has the wrong thematics also some people just do not want them in their setting.

I honestly just do not get bards how do they even work? where does the concept come from?