D&D General D&D's feel - forums vs. Reddit

[JEB]

As mentioned last week in another thread, I took the "what makes D&D feel like D&D" poll I posted here and on rpg.net, and posted it again on Reddit. The poll was posted on r/DnD, and then crossposted to r/Dungeons_and_Dragons, r/dndnext, r/4eDnD, r/DungeonsAndDragons35e, r/adnd, r/BECMI, r/odnd, and r/rpg. The idea was to try and get as close to a "public" poll as possible, with representation from fans of every version of the game.

Unfortunately, I didn't get nearly as many responses as I was hoping - possibly due to some strong objections to the nature of the poll itself, and its focus on game elements rather than the play experience. Despite that, I still got more responses from Reddit than I got here and on rpg.net combined: 185 in total.

I just posted my thoughts on Reddit as well, but I figured it would be interesting to compare the combined results of D&D players on two of the hobby's major forums, to those of D&D players on some of the major D&D hubs on Reddit.

Important caveat: As with ENWorld vs. rpg.net, I specifically asked anyone who took one of the two forum-based polls to avoid responding to the Reddit version, so that might make the differences a little more extreme than they would be otherwise. (However, I'm pretty sure they would have been pretty different anyway.)

I'm using the same tiers I used in every poll summary (items in bold are in different tiers between the two sets):

	Forums (ENWorld + rpg.net combined)	Reddit
Very important to D&D's feel (80% and up)	Levels [89.4%] Distinct character classes [86.6%] Ability scores (Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha) [86.0%] Hit points [83.2%]	Ability scores (Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha) [80.4%]
Important to D&D's feel (60% to 80%)	Armor Class [76.0%] Using multiple types of dice [67.6%] Saving throws [67.6%]	Distinct character classes [75.0%] Levels [73.4%] Armor Class [66.8%] Hit points [63.6%] Using multiple types of dice [69.6%]
Debatable importance (40% to 60%)	Distinct character races/lineages [57.5%] Experience points [52.5%] Lists of specific spells [52.5%] Alignment [41.9%]	Saving throws [54.9%] Distinct character races/lineages [54.3%] Lists of specific spells [51.1%] Alignment [50.5%] Experience points [47.3%] Initiative [46.7%]
Less important to D&D's feel (20% to 40%)	Initiative [36.9%] Lists of specific magic items [38.6%] Hit dice [28.5%] Lists of specific equipment [26.3%]	Hit dice [34.2%] Lists of specific magic items [33.7%] Lists of specific equipment [28.3%] Creature types [27.7%] Damage types [20.1%]
Not important to D&D's feel (20% and below)	Creature types [19.6%] Deities [19.0%] Multiclassing [16.8%] Great Wheel cosmology [15.1%] Proficiencies [11.2%] Damage types [10.1%] Feats [8.9%] Surprise [8.4%] Conditions [5.0%] Challenge ratings [5.0%] Advantage/disadvantage [3.9%] World Axis cosmology [3.4%] Backgrounds [2.8%]	Deities [19.0%] Feats [17.9%] Proficiencies [17.4%] Great Wheel cosmology [15.8%] Challenge ratings [15.8%] Surprise [14.7%] Conditions [14.7%] Multiclassing [14.1%] Advantage/disadvantage [14.1%] Backgrounds [11.4%] World Axis cosmology [9.2%]

Some observations:

• Overall, a lot of the less popular elements on the forums were much more popular on Reddit, but some of the more popular elements on the forums were somewhat less popular on Reddit.
• Everyone seems to agree that ability scores are very important, though how "very important" still differs.
• Classes, levels, and hit points are still important to the Reddit crowd, but significantly less so than forum folks. Hit points actually have the biggest drop, nearly 20% lower on Reddit.
• Classes outrank levels on Reddit.
• Most of the debatable stuff is debatable on both forums and Reddit, even if the numbers differ a bit. With 364 results from 11 different communities, I'm pretty confident now that a lot of D&D players are divided as to how important those are to "feel". (Though I suppose the sample is still small, even if the diversity of sources is notable.)
• Initiative is considered more a part of D&D's feel on Reddit (though it only ups it to "debatable" tier).
• Most of the "less important" and "not important" stuff is also agreed upon by both forums and Reddit, although even the stuff ranked lowest on Reddit still has more support than most of the stuff in the same tier on the forums.
• However, despite 5E being the currently popular edition, its key elements are still near the bottom of the heap (if about 10% more popular). That's tenure for you.
• Alignment is almost exactly at 50% on Reddit, nearly 10% higher than on forums. But it's still "debatable". (As I noted on Reddit, the word "divisive" comes to mind.)
• Damage types are a lot more popular on Reddit, about 10% and a whole tier higher. Challenge Ratings also get about a 10% bump. I'd suspect that's the influence of folks from 3E and 4E adding to 5E, but I would have thought there were plenty of overlapping fans of all three here, too...
• The numbers on deities were extremely close. Rounds to 19% in both, and more precisely it's 34/179 (18.99%) for ENWorld+rpg.net, and 35/185 (18.92%) for Reddit. Kinda creepy.
• Lists of specific spells had exactly the same number of votes in both polls, 94.
• The Great Wheel is also ranked about the same, though the World Axis has more support on Reddit.

Bonus! Combining all the results (ENWorld + rpg.net + all nine subreddits), to create what's probably the closest I can get to a general opinion on D&D's "feel"...

Very important to D&D's feel (80% and up):
Ability scores (Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha): 302 [82.96%]
Levels: 295 [81.04%]
Distinct character classes: 293 [80.49%]

Important to D&D's feel (60% to 80%):
Hit points: 266 [73.08%]
Armor Class: 259 [71.15%]
Using multiple types of dice: 249 [68.41%]
Saving throws: 222 [60.99%]

Debatable importance (40% to 60%):
Distinct character races/lineages: 203 [55.77%]
Lists of specific spells: 188 [51.65%]
Experience points: 181 [49.73%]
Alignment: 168 [46.15%]
Initiative: 152 [41.76%]

Less important to D&D's feel (20% to 40%):
Lists of specific magic items: 131 [35.99%]
Hit dice: 114 [31.32%]
Lists of specific equipment: 99 [27.20%]
Creature types: 86 [23.63%]
Damage types: 85 [23.35%]

Not important to D&D's feel (20% and below):
Deities: 69 [18.96%]
Multiclassing: 56 [15.38%]
Great Wheel cosmology: 56 [15.38%]
Proficiencies: 52 [14.29%]
Feats: 49 [13.46%]
Surprise: 42 [11.54%]
Challenge ratings: 38 [10.44%]
Conditions: 36 [9.89%]
Advantage/disadvantage: 33 [9.07%]
Backgrounds: 26 [7.14%]
World Axis cosmology: 23 [6.32%]

Thoughts, everyone?

 

[TwoSix]

Time for 6E!

 

[DEFCON 1]

It confirms for me the idea that mushing D&D back down to just four classes, or three classes, or even two classes (weapon-user / spell-user) is something that some people might say, but almost nobody actually wants.

 

[dave2008]

Thank you for doing all these polls and sharing the data. I do have one thought;

You list items in the 40-60% range as "debatable importance." I would say that there is no company in their right mind that would remove something that 40-60% of its fan base thought was important. Basically, what I am suggesting @JEB is that your organizational titles are a bit misleading.

 

[dave2008]

It confirms for me the idea that mushing D&D back down to just four classes, or three classes, or even two classes (weapon-user / spell-user) is something that some people might say, but almost nobody actually wants.

I think that is a bit of leap from the data as there was nothing about number of classes. I could argue that you get more "distinct" character classes with only 4 classes instead of 20 classes that start to walk all over each other's toes.

To be clear, you could be correct, but I don't think this data does anything to support your claim.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Thank you for doing all these polls and sharing the data. I do have one thought;

You list items in the 40-60% range as "debatable importance." I would say that there is no company in their right mind that would remove something that 40-60% of its fan base thought was important. Basically, what I am suggesting @JEB is that your organizational titles are bit misleading.

I don't think they mean the debate would be within WotC... the debate is with all of us taking the poll.

Heck... WotC knows they'd need to include a whole bunch of stuff from the bottom tiers too just to make a functional game, even if us players don't necessarily see the need.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I think that is a bit of leap from the data as there was nothing about number of classes. I could argue that you get more "distinct" character classes with only 4 classes instead of 20 class that start to walk all over each other's toes.

To be clear, you could be correct, but I don't think this data does anything to support your claim.

If they all use the exact same mechanics, how can they be more distinct? Or do you mean that by having less classes there is less fluff attached to every character, and thus players are going to create more varied fluff? If that's what you mean, then I agree. I suspect that people who say they want just two classes (warrior and caster) what they'd really like is a true classless system where they can create their PC mechanically however they want and then layer on top of it whatever fluff or story they want to describe them.

Monk comes with a specific story. If you want to attempt to cleanse it of that story and make up a new one (like the pugilist type of character for example), a person certainly can try. But it's really hard to get everyone to necessarily buy into it, and there's a crapton of mechanics that you'd need to refluff and ask everyone else to go along with and remember your refluff. A two-class or classless system has little to no fluff and thus a person can add story on top of everything to their heart's content.

 

[JEB]

It confirms for me the idea that mushing D&D back down to just four classes, or three classes, or even two classes (weapon-user / spell-user) is something that some people might say, but almost nobody actually wants.

Depends how respondents interpreted "distinct" character classes. For some, two might be plenty distinct. I would agree that it's likely most respondents meant several classes that feel different from each other, probably the ones we've seen in most editions of the game... but the numbers alone don't tell us for sure.

You list items in the 40-60% range as "debatable importance." I would say that there is no company in their right mind that would remove something that 40-60% of its fan base thought was important. Basically, what I am suggesting @JEB is that your organizational titles are a bit misleading.

Eh, I think if about half of the respondents think something is part of D&D's feel, and half don't, then whether or not it's objectively important to D&D's feel is very debatable. And I say that as someone who definitely likes stuff in that middle tier and would prefer it stay.

That said, I do absolutely agree that it would be a big gamble for Wizards to toss out anything in the middle tier, and certainly shouldn't be done without careful consideration. It's just less risky than stuff in the top two tiers.

 

[dave2008]

If they all use the exact same mechanics, how can they be more distinct? Or do you mean that by having less classes there is less fluff attached to every character, and thus players are going to create more varied fluff?

I'm not sure were are coming from the same perspective. Why would classes have the exact same mechanics?

 

[Asisreo]

I find reddit rarely has the tolerance to allow for debate because most interactions are made as if they already know exactly what's wrong with everything and anyone with different opinions are just wrong.

They're lax when it comes to moderation as well. Something I deeply appreciate in this forum. I can't count on one hand how many times I've been cursed out or called stupid in the dndnext subreddit.

Also, it feels like many more people on reddit are more interested in the ability to killing stuff and exploring with equity. Its neat to have that but its almost as if they want to play 4e but don't want to play 4e.