D&D 5E Comparing Monk DPR

[Chaosmancer]

A very fair argument. I overlooked that they require attunement. It is weird that the Cloak or Protection is uncommon while the Ring of Protection is rare, even though they do the exact same thing. Looking at armor +1 is rare, +2 is very rare and +3 is legendary. So making Bracers of Armor rare, but requiring attunement isn't totally ridiculous. But probably better to remove the attunement and just make it very rare the same as the armor.

I'd say keep it rare at worst. It can't stack with any other type of armor, and again, should a shield really be that expensive and on the same level as some of the more powerful items in the game? I mean, a staff of power grants +2 AC, and it is Very Rare. And it does A LOT more than grants +2 AC.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Well, the opportunity cost will always be about 3 Ki no matter what option you choose if you wish to stunning strike then Ki-ability (its also possible you miss one or both attacks and "save" a Ki).

The opportunity costs of the three abilities will always be the same, so comparing one ability to the others is very important. I'd still almost always default to Patient Defense over Flurry or Step of the Wind since +3 AC and Dodge is still better and lets you last longer if the enemy targets you but also lets you use your mobility.

So even at 1 Ki per turn, I'd still prefer the +3 PD over any of the other modified abilities.

A fair point, except that I always see step of the wind as the most situational of the abilities.

Sure, disadvantage and +3 AC is AMAZING and likely to make a single opportunity attack miss. Step of the Wind with a Dash though allows the monk to guarantee that a dozen opportunity attacks don't even get made.

Is it generally weaker? Sure. But, Step of the Wind has always been the weakest option, because it is mostly for dashing and monks are crazy fast.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Bladesingers are the most powerful choice for bracers of defense and I think they should remain attunement because of that subclass alone. Bladsingers with bracers of defense are really hard to hit in bladesong. Without any magic items a bladesinger can get 27 effective AC at 5th level with point buy. It only gets worse from there. When you start adding on a ring of protection and bracers of defense it gets silly.

I get what you are saying, but if it is not that big a deal, then it is not a big loss if you have to give it up to attune to something else.

See, I'll counter this with a few points.

1) Wearing Studded Leather armor is the exact same bonus to AC, normally. Now, you could argue Mage Armor, which allows you to stack the bracers and the equivalent of +1 Studded, but there are other ways to do that if you really really wanted to. Again, see Staff of Power. Very Rare attunement for +2 AC, +2 Spell attacks, +2 Hit and damage, a charged strike, and a selection of spells. WAY WAY better use of an attunement slot.

2) Just.... don't make it available if you have a Bladesinger. See, I'm not a fan of designing items to restrict them based off of a single subclass in existence. If you feel like a Bladesinger is too powerful with this item, then just don't give it in treasure to a bladesinger. But, right now, it is not useful enough for the people who can use it without it being broken.


And, to clarify, it isn't that +2 AC isn't a big deal. It is how it interacts with everything else. This is an item that is useless for the majority of classes. Take a Rogue for a moment, and give them the option between the Bracers and +1 Studded Leather armor. Both are Rare items, the bracers require attunement. The Armor makes their AC calculation 13+Dex, the Bracers make it 12+Dex.

And, when it narrow it down to who can use it, you then see a comparison. If a fighter picks up a 10 gold shield, they get +2 AC. IF a monk picks up a 1,000 gold Bracer of Defense, and attunes to it... they get +2 AC. This item is literally just a shield for characters who can't wear armor. And... that doesn't sound that impressive to me. Not when I compare it to some of the other defensive items in the game. Like say, a +2 Shield which DnD beyond lists as Rare, with no attunement. Which is literally the same effect as wearing these bracers on top of a shield and armor set.

 

[jgsugden]

The AC of each class, without the aid of magic, is intentional. Nobody is entitled to a higher AC, or an expectation that you'll get magic items to raise your AC. Raising the AC, with an item like the Bracers of Defense, is intended to be a luxury. As such, there is no reason to change the bracers of defense.

Monks have a variety of defenses. They have solid AC at higher levels, and get amazing saves, evasion, deflect missiles, etc... They are plenty durable enough to be in melee combat without the addition of magic items.

 

[Chaosmancer]

The AC of each class, without the aid of magic, is intentional. Nobody is entitled to a higher AC, or an expectation that you'll get magic items to raise your AC. Raising the AC, with an item like the Bracers of Defense, is intended to be a luxury. As such, there is no reason to change the bracers of defense.

Monks have a variety of defenses. They have solid AC at higher levels, and get amazing saves, evasion, deflect missiles, etc... They are plenty durable enough to be in melee combat without the addition of magic items.

Sure there is a reason to change them.

Because the luxury was made with too high of a price tag. I'm not saying it needs to be redesigned because monks deserve +2 AC. I'm saying it needs to be redesigned because it is a crappy magic item that gives a minor benefit for a massive cost. I want to bring it in line with similar magical items, which are also luxuries that the classes are not entitled to have.

 

[auburn2]

A bladesinger can wear light armor. +1 studded leather is rare, requires no attunement and adds +3 to the bladesingers AC. I don't see how Bracers of Defense is better than this. Or heck, just wear regular studded leather armor for the exact same benefit.

Mage armor is the basic armor for bladesingers, which is base AC 13 (equal to studded +1) bracers of defense are comparable to studded leather +3 on a wizard

 

[auburn2]

nm

 

[Sithlord]

I think this is the wrong way to look at it. People have been asking for Bruce Lee for decades, not a fast controller.

I have often thought a monk should be 4 different archetypes. One for the fighter. One for the rogue (ninja), one for the wizard, and one for the cleric. And have felt something similar for the bard, but not exactly like that.

 

[auburn2]

Okay. I thought about it and you are thinking of the bladesinger casting mage armor (+3), a + 5 Int, +4 Dex (how are you getting this with point buy? Am I missing something?) and casting shield (+5, but only for one round). 10+3+5+4+5=27. With the bracers that would push them up to 29.

At level 5 you have mage armor which is 13, +4Dex, +3intelligence, +2 Haste +5 shield. That is 27 with bracers pushing it to 29. Shield is only for 1 round, but you do not need it very often as 22 is pretty darn good already and you only cast shield when they would hit a 22.

 

[auburn2]

See, I'll counter this with a few points.

1) Wearing Studded Leather armor is the exact same bonus to AC, normally. Now, you could argue Mage Armor, which allows you to stack the bracers and the equivalent of +1 Studded, but there are other ways to do that if you really really wanted to. Again, see Staff of Power. Very Rare attunement for +2 AC, +2 Spell attacks, +2 Hit and damage, a charged strike, and a selection of spells. WAY WAY better use of an attunement slot.

2) Just.... don't make it available if you have a Bladesinger. See, I'm not a fan of designing items to restrict them based off of a single subclass in existence. If you feel like a Bladesinger is too powerful with this item, then just don't give it in treasure to a bladesinger. But, right now, it is not useful enough for the people who can use it without it being broken.


And, to clarify, it isn't that +2 AC isn't a big deal. It is how it interacts with everything else. This is an item that is useless for the majority of classes. Take a Rogue for a moment, and give them the option between the Bracers and +1 Studded Leather armor. Both are Rare items, the bracers require attunement. The Armor makes their AC calculation 13+Dex, the Bracers make it 12+Dex.

And, when it narrow it down to who can use it, you then see a comparison. If a fighter picks up a 10 gold shield, they get +2 AC. IF a monk picks up a 1,000 gold Bracer of Defense, and attunes to it... they get +2 AC. This item is literally just a shield for characters who can't wear armor. And... that doesn't sound that impressive to me. Not when I compare it to some of the other defensive items in the game. Like say, a +2 Shield which DnD beyond lists as Rare, with no attunement. Which is literally the same effect as wearing these bracers on top of a shield and armor set.

+2 AC to an unarmored character is a big deal. Further it is always better than a shield as it does not take an action to don or drop, and it gives you a bonus while allowing a free hand for two weapon fighting, a free action, spell casting, grappling etc. Shields pretty much suck for anyone except a non-melee cleric or a warlock who takes the moderately armored feat.

We have a magic +1 shield in a campaign I am playing right now. Aside from being a magic shield, it also is intelligent and can cast several spells once a day. No one in the entire party wanted it because no one wants to lug around a shield. One of our wizards (who is not proficient) ended up carrying it on his back, he will pull it off and use it to cast something like it is a wand and then drops it or puts it back on his back. If we found bracers of defense multiple characters would be fighting over who got to wear them.