Falcon and winter solider

[Nilbog]

Except that in the last episode, she was still trying really hard to get Carly and the others to come back to the fold.

True but I somewhat rationalised that as being the fact that because the super serum no longer exists (that we know of) it makes the jacked up flag smashers even more of a valuable commodity, and potentially down the line should carter want to get back into the super serum business, she could use their blood as a starting point to make more serum

 

[Janx]

But I think you understand what I'm saying. He was only a hairpin away from winking at the audience and telling us not to do drugs either. It wasn't necessary. Anyone who watched the show up to this point should have already understood what the show was about, without Sam literally telling us, as he did in that scene.

It was like Sam was saying:

"Hey audience! This show is about racism, the American identity and America's destructive foreign policy! Please pay attention while I hit you over the head with the obvious."

"Also, it is totally uncool what you've been doing in foreign countries America, but I'm going to tell OTHER countries how bad they've been. But I think we all know what country I'm really talking about. Wink! Wink!"

To me, this undo's a lot of the subtlety that the show had been building on up to now. It makes it into one of those annoying GI Joe PSA's that you'd see at the end of every episode. Now you know. And knowing is half the battle! -cue music-

You do realize upthread, there was a guy insisting the bank scene wasn't about racism because nobody said or did anything overtly racist, right?

That speech was for them.

 

[Umbran]

It wasn't necessary. Anyone who watched the show up to this point should have already understood what the show was about..

Given the outright denial of the presence of racism we had in this very thread, I find this assessment... poorly considered.

Try an experiment. Think to yourself, "It wasn't necessary for me." Then, acknolwedging that it isnt' all about you, we can consider what that scene was really about, and who it was really for...

Captain America is about more than really great punching. Cap's powers aren't just about shield-slinging. His base superpower is his ability to be on the right side of any moral question. Walker failed at being Captain America because he lacks this power. In a narrative sense, Sam needed to display this power before he could really fully take on the mantle.

Beyond that, whether you needed it or not, the folks who deny racism needed this scene.

And, vastly more importantly, young viewers need this scene. Not because they don't get it - I daresay most of them get it better than we older viewers do. No matter their skin color, those younger viewers need to see an African American hero speaking moral truth to power. That absolutely needs to happen for the overall story to not betray it's own ethos.

"Be quiet Sam, we don't need to be told this," is about the most ironic bit of critique that could be made of this piece. I mean, the Senator he's talking to tries that line... and clearly he was wrong.

So, probably when we say the same thing, we are wrong too.

 

[wicked cool]

Honestly we dont need this scene

Put on the news its 24/7 wall to wall coverage every night

I don't need it bashed over my head during my television etc (it turns into propaganda). Black Panther worked as a hero for the opposite reasons. Batwoman isn't working for the same reasons that eventually Falcon wont. Im happy hes Captain America but I want to see him fight non political bad guys ( I really want them to fight known comic book character villians not made up lessor known flag smashers)


I might be the guy on the banking argument- you do realize if falcon looks like Steve rogers hes still not getting the loan
he has no assets, no money, probably not great credit (no credit is bad credit) etc. Banks are into low risk/high reward customers. We went through this as a world in the last recession. The governments then placed huge regulations on banks for lending etc (this effort was led by the more progressive players in politics). Its even hard now than it was last year due to covid. Good luck trying to open a brand new restaurant or any new business. What will happen is they will steer you towards a high interest credit card

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Given the outright denial of the presence of racism we had in this very thread, I find this assessment... poorly considered.

Try an experiment. Think to yourself, "It wasn't necessary for me." Then, acknolwedging that it isnt' all about you, we can consider what that scene was really about, and who it was really for...

Captain America is about more than really great punching. Cap's powers aren't just about shield-slinging. His base superpower is his ability to be on the right side of any moral question. Walker failed at being Captain America because he lacks this power. In a narrative sense, Sam needed to display this power before he could really fully take on the mantle.

Beyond that, whether you needed it or not, the folks who deny racism needed this scene.

And, vastly more importantly, young viewers need this scene. Not because they don't get it - I daresay most of them get it better than we older viewers do. No matter their skin color, those younger viewers need to see an African American hero speaking moral truth to power. That absolutely needs to happen for the overall story to not betray it's own ethos.

"Be quiet Sam, we don't need to be told this," is about the most ironic bit of critique that could be made of this piece. I mean, the Senator he's talking to tries that line... and clearly he was wrong.

So, probably when we say the same thing, we are wrong too.

This.

Well said.

 

[Sacrosanct]

But I think you understand what I'm saying. He was only a hairpin away from winking at the audience and telling us not to do drugs either. It wasn't necessary. Anyone who watched the show up to this point should have already understood what the show was about, without Sam literally telling us, as he did in that scene.

It was like Sam was saying:

"Hey audience! This show is about racism, the American identity and America's destructive foreign policy! Please pay attention while I hit you over the head with the obvious."

"Also, it is totally uncool what you've been doing in foreign countries America, but I'm going to tell OTHER countries how bad they've been. But I think we all know what country I'm really talking about. Wink! Wink!"

To me, this undo's a lot of the subtlety that the show had been building on up to now. It makes it into one of those annoying GI Joe PSA's that you'd see at the end of every episode. Now you know. And knowing is half the battle! -cue music-

Not to dogpile, but I agree with Umbran and Janx. Look who the target is for that statement. I think it really did need to be that obvious. And I'm betting even with it being that obvious, there are still a lot of people who needed to hear that message that still won't get it.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Honestly we dont need this scene

Put on the news its 24/7 wall to wall coverage every night

I don't need it bashed over my head during my television etc (it turns into propaganda). Black Panther worked as a hero for the opposite reasons. Batwoman isn't working for the same reasons that eventually Falcon wont. Im happy hes Captain America but I want to see him fight non political bad guys ( I really want them to fight known comic book character villians not made up lessor known flag smashers)


I might be the guy on the banking argument- you do realize if falcon looks like Steve rogers hes still not getting the loan
he has no assets, no money, probably not great credit (no credit is bad credit) etc. Banks are into low risk/high reward customers. We went through this as a world in the last recession. The governments then placed huge regulations on banks for lending etc (this effort was led by the more progressive players in politics). Its even hard now than it was last year due to covid. Good luck trying to open a brand new restaurant or any new business. What will happen is they will steer you towards a high interest credit card

Captain America is political, and always has been. He was literally created to encourage Americans to oppose fascism.

I have white friends who started businesses this year, one a restaurant. They got loans no problem.

I work in auto parts. We had a record breaking year last year. We had never made 500k in a month before, and we made over that every single month from March to March. This month it will probably be slightly under that.

In spite of that, I know 6 different Black mechanics, all with good credit, and I know that because they passed the credit check to get the best credit available from us when they gave up on opening a proper shop and got a business license as a “mobile mechanic” instead.

You seem to think that the banking system isn’t racist. You are factually incorrect.

That is why the bank scene plays out that way, because Steve Rogers would absolutely get that loan.

 

[billd91]

Honestly we dont need this scene

Put on the news its 24/7 wall to wall coverage every night

I don't need it bashed over my head during my television etc (it turns into propaganda). Black Panther worked as a hero for the opposite reasons. Batwoman isn't working for the same reasons that eventually Falcon wont. Im happy hes Captain America but I want to see him fight non political bad guys ( I really want them to fight known comic book character villians not made up lessor known flag smashers)

Flag Smasher first appeared in 1985 as Karl Morgenthau. So it's not like the antagonist was unknown, just adapted.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Captain America is political, and always has been. He was literally created to encourage Americans to oppose fascism.

I have white friends who started businesses this year, one a restaurant. They got loans no problem.

I work in auto parts. We had a record breaking year last year. We had never made 500k in a month before, and we made over that every single month from March to March. This month it will probably be slightly under that.

In spite of that, I know 6 different Black mechanics, all with good credit, and I know that because they passed the credit check to get the best credit available from us when they gave up on opening a proper shop and got a business license as a “mobile mechanic” instead.

You seem to think that the banking system isn’t racist. You are factually incorrect.

That is why the bank scene plays out that way, because Steve Rogers would absolutely get that loan.

I work in banking (the tech side, but still). The term you're looking for is "redlining", and it very much was a big deal. There have been laws enacted to combat redlining, but it's still a thing, and very much is a big reason for setting up the playing field unfairly.

 

[Imaculata]

Given the outright denial of the presence of racism we had in this very thread, I find this assessment... poorly considered.

Try an experiment. Think to yourself, "It wasn't necessary for me." Then, acknolwedging that it isnt' all about you, we can consider what that scene was really about, and who it was really for...

It's not that I disagree with the message being send. Quite the opposite, I think it is a very important message, especially in America right now.

However, I don't like being preached to. And that is exactly what the final episode did. Perhaps I wasn't the intended target of the preaching, but I sure was part of the audience receiving it.

Beyond that, whether you needed it or not, the folks who deny racism needed this scene.

Perhaps. But did the show need to become this preachy? And doesn't the strength of the show lie in allowing the audience to come to their own conclusion, rather than telling them what their conclusion should be?

I really appreciated that the bank scene was not quite so overt. It was powerful in showing how subtle racism can be. It provoked discussion, right here on this board, regarding what was really going on. And discussion of this topic is good in my view. It allows the audience to explore the subject; to think about it, and reach their own conclusion, without being told what to think.