D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

[Paul Farquhar]

Again my group and I used the D&D ship combat rules from Saltmarsh and they were perfectly playable... was their something in particular that didn't work for you?

Slow, boring, overcomplicated, clumsy, tactically limited, failed to accommodate more than two vessels, movement speeds that didn't work, didn't work on a grid, didn't make adequate use of character abilities, became a complete mess when spellcasters are casting spells at each other at the same time as ship combat is happening, had no system for resolving boarding apart from "try and play ground combat simultaneously" (which needs about three separate tables).

Once you have played a game that does it well, you can't ever go back.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I mean you can retrofit any game into any other game. Doesn't mean the end result will be satisfying gameplay for the genre, or worth the effort to punch the game into what you want.

D&D is a fine game, and if you can't or don't want to spend the money on other systems, or if you just want to do some one-off stuff in a D&D genre campaign, it's serviceable to mod. But you're just going to get a better experience with an in-genre campaign with an in-genre game.

D&D isn't HERO or GURPS, it just isn't built with an intention to be all things to all people; D20 sort of tried to do this, but things like the magic system being shackled and brainboxed to Jack Vance's butt keep it form really getting there without significant help.

 

[Laurefindel]

So, there is a lot of traffic on the internet dedicated to the idea that DnD is a very limited game, and if you want to run a heist or have romantic fantasy narratives, or even just play a game where bonds with other people is very important, then you should play some indie game that is built for that thing, rather than D&D.

I disagree. I play other games sometimes, to tell short stories with my friends, or to explore and learn different ways of running and constructing a game. For my regular game, I'd almost always rather play dnd. Not only am I so familiar with it that I don't need to think about the rules to use them, but it is a game that is very easy to add to.

What I mean by that is, if I want to have mechanics relating to morale and the bonds formed between PCs and their closest NPCs, or with a community, etc, I can just add rules for that to D&D 5e, and D&D 5e absolutely can handle them without any problems. I have used "act now, plan later" mechanics in 5e. Nothing about 5e prevents or even mildly works against doing so.

What's more, I generally don't want to play a campaign of heists, or a campaign of city building, or a campaign of building a revolution. I want to use those elements within a larger campaign that features those things and more. When my Eberron group did a heist to keep a powerful artifact from being purchased by Emerald Claw terrorists, I stole mechanics and ideas from indie RPGs and from movies and tv shows. If it was a broadcast game, I'd have credited them in the show notes, but I certainly wasn't going to tell my group to remake their characters in Blades in The Dark, expect everyone to learn that system in order to participate in the next story arc, and then go back to DnD when we were done with that job.

So, for me, "you'd be better off playing a game that is made for that" usually rings hollow. What about you?

"You'd be better off playing a game that is made for that" rings annoyingly hollow to me.

"You'd be better playing game X because it does the Y element you want to implement by doing Z but can still be played in a D&D mindset" is already much better IMO, but rarely proposed that way.

As it was said, system matters. A good system represent the specificity of the genre/source material without swamping the players in convulsed rules and special cases. And yet, for a D&D game that deviates a bit from the standard game style, the D&D ruleset sometimes remains the best system, and can be built upon. Other game systems are still super useful if only as inspiration; I have a dozen games at home and although I only use the same two or three, they all been invaluable for mining ideas.

 

[billd91]

"Better" is subjective. Given that most SF RPGs have much more deadly combat than D&D, it provides more reward for players to resolve situations using diplomacy. Which, you might be shocked to learn, some players prefer.

Some do, but then again, some don't or maybe shouldn't if they're going for a particular genre. For example, there's no way a Star Wars RPG should be more lethal than D&D for the protagonists. If it was significantly so, it would almost certainly fail to emulate Star Wars. Same with superhero RPGs, which should be even less lethal than D&D.

 

[dave2008]

I highly doubt that you can run horror in D&D.
Horror depends on a feeling of powerlessness and D&D is hardwired to make PCs powerful, both in how the mechanics work and how the PCs progress. And as everything is tied to level you can't have the PCs not progress and thus become stronger in combat. You have to always use enemies way above the level of the PCs, but that causes other problems as so much is tied to level.

Well there have been several threads on this subject with the upcoming release of the Ravenloft setting. Some agree with you and some disagree with you.

Given this thread is about modifying 5e to fit a particular "feel", I know from experience you can very easily modify D&D 5e to give it a horror feel. I have done both a zombie apocalypse style and cosmic horror style game in 5e to great effect, and by that I mean lots of groans and moans and a TPK (or nearly so)

 

[jmartkdr2]

I feel that the D&D rules really lend themselves to adventures that involve heroic characters, copious amounts of violence, and the accumulation of an obscene amount of treasure. And very often players have a D&D mindset because the rules push them in that direction which I don't think is appropriate for every game. So if I want to play a game where the typical D&D mindset would be inappropriate then I'm better off switching to another set of rules.

I usually define/describe D&D as doing heroic fantasy adventure.

Heroic: the characters are action-movie heroes. They do amazing things, are expected to win, and are tougher than normal folk. The whole concept of hit points leans into this and supports it - which is why this is the hardest thing to get away from. It's why D&D doesn't work well for modern- or pulp horror. PCs are too cool for that. (It works for Hemmer-style horror, though.)

Fantasy: Out of the box, D&D does D&D fantasy, which is it's own subgenre based on an Intellectual Property. But it's neither hard nor complicated to add or remove content (monsters, items, classes, etc) to change the type of fantasy, and with enough work you can push it to a lot of different places, including most of Sci Fi. So long as it stays heroic, and you're willing to do the work, you'll be fine.

Adventure: the macro game loop of D&D is the adventure: go somewhere dangerous (the dungeon/hexcrawl/etc), have a series of encounters, get rewards if you succeed. You use those rewards to get better at overcoming challenges, which means you can go on more difficult adventures, which have bigger rewards. Cycle again. If you get away form this, the rules stop helping you. They don't actually interfere with not-adventure play, but they aren't on your side anymore.

For example: Star Wars is a great setting for D&D, and D&D serves that setting well.

Now, this is where I agree with @doctorbadwolf : The types of encounters possible with a little bit of work are just as broad as the fantasy genre. You can do fights, heists, negotiations, chases, pod races, sinking ship escapes, interrogations, traps, puzzles, and more. You don't need a bespoke system for any kind of encounter. D&D can handle them, if you're willing to make and/or find some good houserules (which isn't that hard). A more bespoke system might be a great place to mine ideas, but you shouldn't switch systems for an encounter. You switch systems for a different overall play experience.

 

[Imaro]

Slow, boring, overcomplicated, clumsy, tactically limited, failed to accommodate more than two vessels, movement speeds that didn't work, didn't work on a grid, didn't make adequate use of character abilities, became a complete mess when spellcasters are casting spells at each other at the same time as ship combat is happening, had no system for resolving boarding apart from "try and play ground combat simultaneously" (which needs about three separate tables).

Once you have played a game that does it well, you can't ever go back.

Overcomplicated (yet also tactically limited)?? Failed to accommodate more than 2 vessels?? movement speeds that didn't work on a grid?? Uhm... have you read or used the rules from Saltmarsh??

 

[dave2008]

"Better" is subjective.

Of course, that why I framed as my experience / opinion.

Given that most SF RPGs have much more deadly combat than D&D, it provides more reward for players to resolve situations using diplomacy. Which, you might be shocked to learn, some players prefer.

I am not shocked. We are old school players (started in the 80s) and my group will usually try diplomacy / persuasion, trickery, avoidance, etc. before combat. They know it is a quick death sentence otherwise. Though I don't really see the relevance to discussion.

But if the space combat from FASA Trek (which is awesome) gives me what I want, and the ground combat from FASA Trek gives me what I want, why should I involve D&D?

Sure, I don't think anyone is trying to do that. It is all about personal preference. It is the OPs stance, I believe, and mine that is equally OK to say: if grafting the space combat rules from FASA Trey onto my D&D 5e game give me what I want why should I play FASA Trek?

Both can be true.

 

[Aldarc]

This thread reads like a massive, rude middle finger given to all non-D&D games and their designers. I don't need that sort of negative energy in my life or from the sort people who endorse these sorts of viewpoints.

 

[dave2008]

But you're just going to get a better experience with an in-genre campaign with an in-genre game.

That is a sound idea, but it is not a fact. Different people want and enjoy different things and experience and perceive things differently. Not to mention an "in-genre game" can simply be bad. Just because something is be-spoke or in-genre doesn't mean it is good.