D&D 5E Dashing with flying magic items, yea or nay?

[Ruin Explorer]

But this exactly highlights why "RAW" is stupid.

That's the point! You establish RAW as a baseline, which is often a stupid baseline. But very often with RPGs people don't even understand what's been written, or don't remember what's been written.

This is staggeringly obvious whenever people list "house rules" for their game in one of those threads - inevitably a bunch of stuff that people list as "house rules" is actual game rules they've just forgotten are actual rules - or never knew were, but came up with an identical approach.

Because some rules actually aren't written. As @Paul Farquhar points out... they don't think there actually is a rule written in this case for the Boom. Which makes it doubly pointless to care about it, let along spend multiple posts arguing about it.

Yup. Except it's not pointless, because misrepresenting what the RAW is causes a lot of confusion, because when people say RAW, they mean what is written. And it's always worth noting what isn't written - but that's not RAW, that's just missing rules.

Everything in this game is RAI-- Rules As Interpreted.

No. This is an unhelpful way of looking at things and harmful to communication. This is the second time in this thread you've tried to change the meaning of an acronym. That's unhelpful. Words have agreed meanings so humans can understand each other. When you try to unilaterally change that, you're harming communication, not helping it.

Next up, the guy who tried to tell me CRPG stood for "classic RPG" not "computer RPG".

RAI means Rules as Intended. You don't have to like that, but don't try and make the acronym mean something else. If there's no creator to confirm the RAI, there is no RAI, just something more like RAYTAI (Rules As You Think Are Intended), which is still a bit different to "Rules as Interpreted". Rules as Interpreted, in plain English, suggests something much closer to RAW, and which still might not be RAI.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Ifnyou treat them as veihicles, just require the pilot to use their action to make it move every turn. Like the veihicle rules say.

I mean, that makes their movement really costly in combat.

I like this idea. While the only vehicle rules that specify that are for the land infernal war machines, taking the approach of it having its own turn and using its own action economy to move based on the water vehicles and controlled creatures isn't necessarily a perfect fit either.

The downside of it is that previous editions didn't require it, but since they also hampered maneuverability in a way 5e doesn't, this seems like an appropriately 5e way of making a simple drawback that balances that out.

I considered taking off the potential of falling when concentration-breaking things would happen, but if that were the case, then you could use this much like boots of levitation and just fly up somewhere and keep an aerial perch during combat. Since those boots are rare and require both concentration and attunement, I think we need to keep the nerf or have yet another item that it shouldn't be better than but is anyway.

So here's a slightly revised version, and I can't see anyway to really nerf it harder. Still a strong uncommon major item that completely negates elevation/flight challenges in the Exploration Pillar, but now it becomes extremely undesireable in combat outside of some sort of really niche cases (which is fine).

Broom of Flying (Revised)
Wondrous item, uncommon

This wooden broom, which weighs 3 pounds, functions like a mundane broom until you stand astride it (following the rules for Mounting and Dismounting a creature in the Player's Handbook) and speak its command word as an action. It then hovers beneath you and can be ridden in the air as an airborne vehicle. It has a flying speed of 50 feet. It can carry up to 400 pounds, but its flying speed becomes 30 feet while carrying over 200 pounds. The broom stops hovering when you land.
While you are seated on the hovering broom and gripping it with at least one hand, you can use your action to direct its movement. It otherwise hovers in place. If any other effect moves the broom against your will, you must succeed on a DC 10 Dexterity saving throw or fall off the broom, landing prone on the ground and taking falling damage appropriate to the distance fallen (see chapter 8 in the Player's Handbook). If you are knocked prone while riding the broom, or if you or the broom take damage or are subject to an environmental condition that might break concentration (whether or not you are concentrating on an effect), you must make the same saving throw. You have Disadvantage on this saving throw if you are not gripping the broom with at least one hand. If at any time you are neither seated on the broom nor gripping it, it falls to the ground harmlessly.
You can send the broom to travel alone to a destination within 1 mile of you if you speak the command word as an action, name the location, and are familiar with that place. The broom comes back to you when you speak another command word as an action, provided that the broom is still within 1 mile of you.

 

[Oofta]

When it comes to brooms as vehicles, I don't personally find it helpful. First, the rules in the original PHB and DMG for vehicles only covers overland travel. Relying on optional books released years after the DMG was published is stretching it.

I mean yes you can RANT (rules as needlessly transformed) all you want. But if brooms were supposed to be vehicles and we were supposed to use the rules from a mod, the mod would state that they apply to brooms. There would be errata that clarified things. There's not.

So my preference is RARR (rules are really rulings). Maybe ROAR (rules Oofta asserted rightly). RAD (rules as decided)?

P.S. the acronyms are jokes, there's nothing wrong if you just want to RANT.

 

[NotAYakk]

When it comes to brooms as vehicles, I don't personally find it helpful. First, the rules in the original PHB and DMG for vehicles only covers overland travel. Relying on optional books released years after the DMG was published is stretching it.

Player's Handbook page 182

Characters in wagons, carriages, or other land vehicles choose a pace as normal. Characters in waterborne vessels are limited to the speed of the vessel (see chapter 5, "Equipment"), and they don't suffer penalties for a fast pace or gain benefits from a slow pace. Depending on the vessel and the sized of the crew, ships might be able to travel for up to 24 hours per day.

Certain special mounts, such as a pegasus or a griffon, or special vehicles, such as a carpet of flying, allow you to travel more swiftly. The Dungeon Master's Guide contains more information on special methods of travel.

Hey look, the basic rules calls the carpet of flying a vehicle. D&D beyond even uses broom of flying:

Adventuring

D&D Beyond - Dungeons & Dragons Fifth Edition Tools, Rules, Races, Classes, Items, Spells, Monsters, and More

www.dndbeyond.com

It isn't a creature. It lets you ride it. That is a vehicle.

I like this idea. While the only vehicle rules that specify that are for the land infernal war machines, taking the approach of it having its own turn and using its own action economy to move based on the water vehicles and controlled creatures isn't necessarily a perfect fit either.

But, "Movement and various Action options require a certain number of crew to be present on the ship. These crew are spending their entire turns "too busy managing the ship to do anything else during combat", and do not appear to actually roll initiative"

So a broom (and carpet) just has a crew of 1, and if that crew isn't using their action to run the vehicle, the vehicle is uncontrolled.

--

I am not saying this is a mandatory reading. I'm just saying that this removes the entire "the broom is too good" for its rarity, and still makes it very good.

Uncommon:

Broom: Requires you to crew it, 50' speed.
Boots: Requires you to attune to it, gives you 30' flying speed, 120 minutes before a cooldown.

One no longer dominates the other.

Rare:

Wings: Requires you to attune to it, gives you 60' flying speed for 1 hour with 1d12 hour cooldown.

Is much faster than Boots for most PCs.

Very Rare:

Carpet: Requires you to crew it, speed inverse to capacity.

Either is extremely fast 80' with 200 lbs capacity, or high capacity 800 lbs 30' speed; it has a significantly better capacity:speed profile than the broom. The 800 lbs one can have 1 pilot with lots of PCs having their action free. (Also note it can handle 2x capacity for 1/2 speed; even the smallest carpet can out-speed a broom at any weight level).

 

[Oofta]

Player's Handbook page 182




Hey look, the basic rules calls the carpet of flying a vehicle. D&D beyond even uses broom of flying:

Adventuring

D&D Beyond - Dungeons & Dragons Fifth Edition Tools, Rules, Races, Classes, Items, Spells, Monsters, and More

www.dndbeyond.com

It isn't a creature. It lets you ride it. That is a vehicle.


But, "Movement and various Action options require a certain number of crew to be present on the ship. These crew are spending their entire turns "too busy managing the ship to do anything else during combat", and do not appear to actually roll initiative"

So a broom (and carpet) just has a crew of 1, and if that crew isn't using their action to run the vehicle, the vehicle is uncontrolled.

--

I am not saying this is a mandatory reading. I'm just saying that this removes the entire "the broom is too good" for its rarity, and still makes it very good.

Uncommon:
Broom: Requires you to crew it, 50' speed.
Boots: Requires you to attune to it, gives you 30' flying speed, 120 minutes before a cooldown.

One no longer dominates the other.

Rare:

Wings: Requires you to attune to it, gives you 60' flying speed for 1 hour with 1d12 hour cooldown.

Is much faster than Boots for most PCs.

Very Rare:

Carpet: Requires you to crew it, speed inverse to capacity.

Either is extremely fast 80' with 200 lbs capacity, or high capacity 800 lbs 30' speed; it has a significantly better capacity:speed profile than the broom. The 800 lbs one can have 1 pilot with lots of PCs having their action free.

There are no general rules in the PHB for vehicles in combat in the PHB. In addition, I don't assume all vehicles work the same. There's a difference between piloting a sailing ship that requires a crew and what is effectively a flying motorcycle.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

There are no general rules in the PHB for vehicles in combat in the PHB. In addition, I don't assume all vehicles work the same. There's a difference between piloting a sailing ship that requires a crew and what is effectively a flying motorcycle.

That's true. I'd certainly allow a player to dash while driving a wagon/coach, for example. It would be very weird to me if you couldn't drive fast (during combat) on a wagon. How would you do good Western-style wagon chases if they only travelled at one speed? (Which is a very different thing to how far you can take it in overland travel in a day - I have no problem with it being limited to about the same as walking (slower even) when travelling for days at a time.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

That's true. I'd certainly allow a player to dash while driving a wagon/coach, for example. It would be very weird to me if you couldn't drive fast (during combat) on a wagon. How would you do good Western-style wagon chases if they only travelled at one speed? (Which is a very different thing to how far you can take it in overland travel in a day - I have no problem with it being limited to about the same as walking (slower even) when travelling for days at a time.

In order for wagon to move faster it would be the horses pulling it that would have to take the dash action, not the driver.

The trouble with treating brooms and carpets as vehicles is it curtails the ability to have fights whilst riding them. Something that is common in the fiction D&D is drawing these items from.

 

[NotAYakk]

In order for wagon to move faster it would be the horses pulling it that would have to take the dash action, not the driver.

The trouble with treating brooms and carpets as vehicles is it curtails the ability to have fights whilst riding them. Something that is common in the fiction D&D is drawing these items from.

Well, if they have the "tell it where to go as an action" but the vehicle keeps on following your last order after you make it, you can fight while on them.

It is just awkward.

You order the broom to go over there, and then end your turn. Next turn you attack as it continues to move. So you'll either get long, sweeping movement arcs and attacks, or tight maneuvering that isn't always where you want to go while sometimes getting a shot off.

Then add a feat
Broom Pilot
You have extensive practice with piloting magical vehicles. When controlling a broom of flying or other magical vehicle

• You do not have to spend an action to change where it is going on your turn.
• You have advantage on saves and checks to avoid being knocked off it
• When you take the dash action while piloting a magical vehicle, you can instead make the vehicle dash.

To express how good the Broom of Flying is, compare this feat plus a broom to winged boots.

Your movement speed is 50' instead of 30', you are down 1 feat, and up 1 attunement slot. A feat that gives you 20' of movement speed and an attunement slot is a top-tier feat.

That permits people who want to be broom-athletes to be one, at the cost of a bit of investment, while not making the broom into a crazy broken good uncommon magic item.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

In order for wagon to move faster it would be the horses pulling it that would have to take the dash action, not the driver.

The trouble with treating brooms and carpets as vehicles is it curtails the ability to have fights whilst riding them. Something that is common in the fiction D&D is drawing these items from.

While that's obviously technically true, when it comes to a Wagon, are the horses really mechanically considered, other than the fluff of what's powering it? Or in otherwords, is that distinction important?

 

[DemonWolf7896]

If you really want to play strictly RAW, then I notice that the description of the broom doesn't say anything about the rider being able to steer it...

Um... The one free item interaction you get on your turn seems like it could cover that, maybe? You're not really using a fine art, you're pointing a stick between your legs in a particular direction. It just goes whichever direction it's pointed which could cause interesting situations, if, say, the broom was glamoured to look like the tines are on the wrong end...