D&D General When did D&D gods first rely on their worshipers?

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I'm taking my second lap through the Discworld books, the first since Sir Terry died, and I've reached 1992's Small Gods, arguably his best work. (And it's pretty close to a must-read for players of clerics, paladins and the DMs that want to make religion a focus in a D&D universe.)

In the book, Pratchett lays out that gods -- other than a hypothetical but unseen creator god -- rely on the belief of worshipers to survive. Too few, and they dwindle in power, becoming disembodied spirits with only the loosest sense of identity if they lose all their worshipers. In contrast, a god with a great deal of worshipers becomes ever more powerful, eventually becoming the focus of world-spanning religions and having all sorts of supernatural powers at their disposal.

This is also, of course, how gods in many D&D worlds work, including the Forgotten Realms, but the idea was present in multiple 2E books outside that setting, as I recall.

Where did this idea first originate? In Small Gods, Pratchett says this idea originated with the Gnostic Heresy, but a look at the (somewhat impenetrable) Wikipedia entry doesn't discuss the notion that belief empowers gods, at least not that I can see. Pratchett was familiar with roleplaying games -- the protagonists hear gigantic invisible dice rolling off in the distance multiple times in his first two Discworld novels -- so it's not impossible that he got the idea from a D&D book. But D&D authors are even more aware of Pratchett, and it seems like they would be more likely to get the idea from him, similar to how the tension between Law and Chaos comes from Moorcock.

Or is this all from a pre-existing source that both Pratchett and D&D authors took the idea from? Anyone know?

 

[Faolyn]

I suppose you could go through the Gods Need Prayer Badly TV Trope page (sorry!) and figure out which is the earliest use of the trope listed there. Apparently it was an element of I, Claudius, written in the 30s. But I haven't read that (or seen the BBC series, other than clips) so I have no idea how much of an element it was.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I suppose you could go through the Gods Need Prayer Badly TV Trope page (sorry!) and figure out which is the earliest use of the trope listed there.

On a work day? For shame!

 

[orangefruitbat]

I would guess that a lot of RPG writers saw the original Star Trek episode where Kirk and company meets Apollo.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Or is this all from a pre-existing source that both Pratchett and D&D authors took the idea from? Anyone know?

This was a fairly common theme in a lot of work in the 60s and 70s, including (but not limited to) Star Trek and a lot of Zelazny's stories. I am sure you can probably trace it back farther- I think that the book version of I Claudius (30s) has it as well, and of course there's the famous example from Lankhmar.

So this is definitely an OLD theme.

 

[Davies]

I believe Gygax first discussed the idea in his "From the Sorcerer's Scroll" column in Dragon #97:

Various and sundry statistics are given for deities, but let us make a basic assumption. Their power comes from those who believe in them; without followers, any deity is consigned to operations on some other plane of existence, without the means to touch upon the Prime Material. Such deities have no immediate interest to us, since they do not fall within the current scope of the game. Thus, we are interested only in deities with followers dwelling on the Prime Material Plane of the campaign. These faithful give the various deities power. Of course, this idea is not new. It has been put forth often by others, whether seriously or as a device of literature. It serves as an excellent game device as well.

Emphasis mine.

But it had come up in Dragon at least once before that, in Ed Greenwood's "Down to Earth Divinity" in Dragon #54:

This follows the notion that gods possess power relative to the worship they receive, but I have deliberately left this idea vague and undeveloped, for players would love to learn such mechanisms in order to influence the relative power of gods for their own ends, and that type of manipulation upsets the balance of a campaign very quickly.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I'm taking my second lap through the Discworld books, the first since Sir Terry died, and I've reached 1992's Small Gods, arguably his best work. (And it's pretty close to a must-read for players of clerics, paladins and the DMs that want to make religion a focus in a D&D universe.)

In the book, Pratchett lays out that gods -- other than a hypothetical but unseen creator god -- rely on the belief of worshipers to survive. Too few, and they dwindle in power, becoming disembodied spirits with only the loosest sense of identity, if they lose all their worshipers. In contrast, a god with a great deal of worshipers becomes ever more powerful, eventually becoming the focus of world-spanning religions and having all sorts of supernatural powers at their disposal.

This is also, of course, how gods in many D&D worlds work, including the Forgotten Realms, but the idea was present in multiple 2E books outside that setting, as I recall.

Where did this idea first originate? In Small Gods, Pratchett says this idea originated with the Gnostic Heresy, but a look at the (somewhat impenetrable) Wikipedia entry doesn't discuss the notion that belief empowers gods, at least not that I can see. Pratchett was familiar with roleplaying games -- the protagonists hear gigantic invisible dice rolling off in the distance multiple times in his first two Discworld novels -- so it's not impossible that he got the idea from a D&D book. But D&D authors are even more aware of Pratchett, and it seems like they would be more likely to get the idea from him, similar to how the tension between Law and Chaos comes from Moorcock.

Or is this all from a pre-existing source that both Pratchett and D&D authors took the idea from? Anyone know?

The idea that worship empowers spirits or small gods is certainly pre-historic. There's a lot of evidence of it in gatherer-hunter cultures, including ones contacted only relatively recently. If often sits comfortably alongside the idea that they need to be propitiated too. It's basically a somewhat animistic view. As for the idea that full-on Greco-Roman-type gods or even more powerful ones need worship, I'm again going to go with pre-historic. Even the Old Testament hints at it, though at one point god explicitly claims that, unlike the other gods, he doesn't need sacrifices or worship, he just wants them, but at other times, it kind of seems like he does benefit from them or need them (that whole thing is a bit misty, sometimes he seems like he's the only real god, sometimes he seems to be saying other ones are real but evil and so on).

Whether it was true that the Gnostics actually believed this is sort of beside the point, because the idea/concept was already knocking around before then, and I think whilst the entry isn't explicit about it, I half-recall an element about Gnostic theology which could be understood this way (hoping I remember it properly later! It's on the edge of my mind).

Most likely, Pratchett read a book or met someone, who explained Gnostic theology in that way.

I know that I was familiar with the view prior to meeting it in RPGs and long prior to Small Gods (though that was the place where it was most well-explained!), so I was aware of it somehow before I was 10, but I have no idea where exactly that idea came from. I read a ton about mythology, cults and so on, so it was probably in there somewhere.

Looking at TVTropes is unexpectedly fruitful as Plutarch (AD46-AD119) relates a story of this nature regarding the death of Pan, so that gives us a minimum of about 1900 years. It also claims it's part of various belief systems - including Shinto animism - I'd say it's part of a lot of animism.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I believe Gygax first discussed the idea in his "From the Sorcerer's Scroll" column in Dragon #97:



Emphasis mine.

But it had come up in Dragon at least once before that, in Ed Greenwood's "Down to Earth Divinity" in Dragon #54:

It's before that in D&D.

Deities & Demigods (1980)- "The source of a deity's godheads is in some way connected to his or her earthly worshipers, though in what manner the gods derive this power is a mystery totally beyond mortal (or immortal) comprehension. However, it is true that a god's power often increases or decreases as the number of his worshipers varies. Thus deities, and clerics as their agents, constantly try to increase the quantity and quality of their worshipers." (p. 8)

 

[Faolyn]

On a work day? For shame!

 

[Charlaquin]

Whether it was true that the Gnostics actually believed this is sort of beside the point, because the idea/concept was already knocking around before then, and I think whilst the entry isn't explicit about it, I half-recall an element about Gnostic theology which could be understood this way (hoping I remember it properly later! It's on the edge of my mind).

Most likely, Pratchett read a book or met someone, who explained Gnostic theology in that way.

I’m no expert on Gnosticism, but it definitely seems like a strange way to frame it to me...