D&D 5E Martials v Casters...I still don't *get* it.

[Crimson Longinus]

Does it? I can't think of any D&D games where "gritty realism" was espoused or requested. Most DMs/players who want that tend to go to other systems.

Because it is optional rule and is misleadingly called 'gritty realism' instead of 'slower combat pacing' or something like that. But the number of complaints about issues that would be at least mostly resolved using this rest variant are exceedingly common.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Why are Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters unconsidered in the debates?

Personally, because getting into subclasses gives too much variation in a situation that already has too many variables.
Plus there is the risk of cherrypicking: e.g. comparing an S-tier Wizard with a D-tier Fighter subclass when trying to demonstrate a point.

With those subclasses specifically, there is also the issue that they're designed to bridge the martial-caster divide.
If you're trying to work out how to close the versatility gap between martials and casters, telling the martial "Just become a caster then" is kinda unhelpful.

The most common complaints is that Martials don't have versatility or utility out of combat, but they do in the form of these subclasses.

Both of these archetypes are thought of as highly versatile subclasses compared to the other options and, particularly in the AT's case, very powerful.

Instead, they have a truncated portion of spellcasting to keep things balanced. But they still have some decent abilities like Dimension Door, Fabricate, Polymorph, and Fly.

While these spells aren't "better than what spellcasters can do at their level." Its still added versatility that increases their usefulness outside of combat, especially since a caster doesn't have to worry about doubling up on their spell or cantrips within their prepared classes.

Indeed. They are versatile because they have spells, but there is a considerable pushback from a few in the community that spells grant increased versatility and utility options.

 

[tetrasodium]

look I have played fighter and can tell you the simple problem I always end up feeling like a lackey to the party, not a full real member sort of like hawkeye is technically an avenger but is less important than your appendix.

It's the way our brains work. Deep down it's more advantageous in terms of survival to quickly notice bigger while more smaller things tend to only come into play once we engage the less emotional higher regions of the brain. Look at it this way.

• Level 5 fighter & level 5 wizard, both have 16 in their primary stat. Fighter has a longsword & shield. Wizard has a generic d12 cantrip we are using to avoid "but damage type" complications that typically work against the d12 cantrips (poison & necrotic), using a generic cantrip instead of toll/poison spray improves the caster making it easier to show the fighter being left behind if that's happening.
  • Fighter attacks twice for 4.5+3 for a total average of 7.5 each or an average total of 15.
  • Wizard casts his d12 cantrip once against the same target & does 13,. 13 is 2 less than 15
• GM gives the fighter a +1 longsword, at level 6 the fighter bumps his strength to 18
  • Fighter attacks twice for 4.5+4+1 for a total average of 9.5 each or an average total of 19.
  • Wizard casts his d12 cantrip once against the same target & does 13,. 13 is 6 less than 19
• Level 8 fighter bumps strength to 20 Wizard bumps int to 18
  • Fighter attacks twice for 4.5+5+1 for a total average of 10.5 each or an average total of 21.
  • Wizard casts his d12 cantrip once against the same target & does 13,. 13 is 8 less than 23
  • Level 11, fighter gets a third attack, wizard gets a third d12 on the generic cantrip
    • Fighter attacks three times for 4.5+5+1 for a total average of 8.5 each or an average total of 31.5.
    • Wizard casts his d12 cantrip once against the same target & does 19.5,. 19.5 is 12 less than 31.5
• I don't think the 4th attack at 20 & 4h cantrip die at 17 is relevant but it only continues to get worse
• Fun fact: if the wizard misses one attack with that cantrip, he does zero damage that round. If the fighter misses one he does 7.5/9.5/21 that round.

That matchup with a sword & board fighter using a one handed longsword should have been no contest or at least somewhat close, it's far from it though. Do something like a greatsword & GWM things get silly fast

• Level 5 fighter & level 5 wizard, both have 16 in their primary stat. Fighter has a greatword. Wizard has a generic d12 cantrip we are using to avoid "but damage type" complications that typically work against the d12 cantrips (poison & necrotic), using a generic cantrip instead of toll/poison spray improves the caster making it easier to show the fighter being left behind if that's happening.
  • Fighter attacks twice for 7+3+10 for a total average of 20 each or an average total of 40.
  • Wizard casts his d12 cantrip once against the same target & does 13,. 13 is 7 less than 40
• GM gives the fighter a +1 longsword, at level 6 the fighter bumps his strength to 18
  • Fighter attacks twice for 7+4+1+10 for a total average of 22 each or an average total of 44.
  • Wizard casts his d12 cantrip once against the same target & does 13,. 13 is 31 less than 44
• Level 8 fighter bumps strength to 20 Wizard bumps int to 18
  • Fighter attacks twice for7+5+1+10 for a total average of 23 each or an average total of 21.
  • Wizard casts his d12 cantrip once against the same target & does 13,. 13 is 33 less than 46
  • Level 11, fighter gets a third attack, wizard gets a third d12 on the generic cantrip
    • Fighter attacks three times for 7+5+1+10 for a total average of 23 each or an average total of 31.5.
    • Wizard casts his d12 cantrip once against the same target & does 19.5,. 19.5 is 49.5 less than 69
• I still don't think the 4th attack at 20 & 4h cantrip die at 17 is relevant but it only continues to get worse

The divergence gets worse if the wizard is using a normal d6 d8 or d10 cantrip that actually exists. That gap even with the odds so heavily stacked in favor of the fighter by using a theoretical cantrip that does not exist is so great that even if the wizard gets off a "big" nuke or manages to nuke a bunch of things to line up with dmg249's assumptions he's still lagging far behind.

"but why stick to damage only? aren't a lot of the wizard's best spells nondamage?" is the obvious question & I agree that they are. It has two big problems still. All of those spells are pegged to be roughly on par with martials using no feats& no magic weapons but that's a silly situation that really only occurs at low levels where resist nonmagic b/p/s is unusual & games where the GM explicitly chooses to use some kind of screw the martial monster(s) they have not provided a way to bypass it. There are basically no feats that improve a caster's ability to cast spells (nondamage ones especially) in any fashion even close to the dramatic step up as something like that longword+shield to greatsword+GWM. Factor on top of all that the fact that any leveled spell consumes a resource(spell slot) while nearly all of those nondamage spells tend towards being concentration & the gap widens even before considering the frequency of save to nullify then free save every round to dismiss on those spells.

Some of this could have been avoided by giving more concentration spells a hex-like move the spell as a bonus action, using concentration less, spells with better power, less costly scaling of spells, or not enacting such an excessive number of safeguards working in parallel against the LFQW of past editions.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

And by the way, if no one has any magic items at all, how is the fighter coping with the near-universal resistance to nonmagical weapon damage at this level?

Well, if the beings approaching are resistant to nonmagical weapon damage, then the fighter will be punching them for half damage.

I am awaiting with interest to see how the OP resolves the success of both fighter and wizard in this encounter.

 

[Asisreo]

Well, if the beings approaching are resistant to nonmagical weapon damage, then the fighter will be punching them for half damage.

I am awaiting with interest to see how the OP resolves the success of both fighter and wizard in this encounter.

Do you mean the Planetar challenge or the newer, more comprehensive one I'm working on?

 

[MichaelSomething]

I wish we could get people who ran high level 3.5 RPGA games or high level Pathfinder Soceity games during PF 1st. Those people would would have first hand experience in this stuff...

 

[tetrasodium]

Well, if the beings approaching are resistant to nonmagical weapon damage, then the fighter will be punching them for half damage.

I am awaiting with interest to see how the OP resolves the success of both fighter and wizard in this encounter.

If I read the leadup right there will be treasure that is split & can be sold
an uncommon +1 weapon in the dmg is 1010-500gp in the dmg & 1d6*100gp in xge.
something like a flametongue is Rare & jumps to 501-5,000gp in the dmg & 2d10*1,000gp in xge That means a 2d6 slash +2d6 fire flametongue greatsword should probably be around 5-20k
very rare 5,001-50,000go in dmg& (1d4+1)*10,000gp in xge

 

[Asisreo]

If I read the leadup right there will be treasure that is split & can be sold
an uncommon +1 weapon in the dmg is 1010-500gp in the dmg & 1d6*100gp in xge.
something like a flametongue is Rare & jumps to 501-5,000gp in the dmg & 2d10*1,000gp in xge That means a 2d6 slash +2d6 fire flametongue greatsword should probably be around 5-20k
very rare 5,001-50,000go in dmg& (1d4+1)*10,000gp in xge

I'll use the three core books, that way it reduces what could be thought of as Power Creep. During Downtime, the wizard/fighter can choose what they plan to do for downtime with the listed activities in the PHB and DMG. They can do things that their character can do naturally as well, so a wizard is permitted to cast their spells freely, as expected.

The price for all magic items will be half of their maximum value at their tier. For example, the maximum value of an uncommon item is 500gp, so it will cost 250gp in this exercise.

Edit:

I'll make one more thing clear, I've mentioned it already but want complete transparency.

The end-of-day combat will involve the entire adventuring day exp for the combat. This would be the EXP equivalent of a Tarrasque, but maybe slightly less. It also won't be a single monster, nor multiple identical monsters, but multiple unique monsters in the fight. An example would be a Balor, Demilich, and a Solar (this isn't the encounter, just an example).

 

[Stalker0]

A level 20 party consisting of a Cleric, Wizard, Fighter, Rogue. The 4 common archetypes. We can choose either a fighter or a wizard and see what and how they contribute.
Again, I ask, is this fair?

As long as you take it to its own thread and doesn't clog up this one, by all means.

 

[Mind of tempest]

It's the way our brains work. Deep down it's more advantageous in terms of survival to quickly notice bigger while more smaller things tend to only come into play once we engage the less emotional higher regions of the brain. Look at it this way.

• Level 5 fighter & level 5 wizard, both have 16 in their primary stat. Fighter has a longsword & shield. Wizard has a generic d12 cantrip we are using to avoid "but damage type" complications that typically work against the d12 cantrips (poison & necrotic), using a generic cantrip instead of toll/poison spray improves the caster making it easier to show the fighter being left behind if that's happening.
  • Fighter attacks twice for 4.5+3 for a total average of 7.5 each or an average total of 15.
  • Wizard casts his d12 cantrip once against the same target & does 13,. 13 is 2 less than 15
• GM gives the fighter a +1 longsword, at level 6 the fighter bumps his strength to 18
  • Fighter attacks twice for 4.5+4+1 for a total average of 9.5 each or an average total of 19.
  • Wizard casts his d12 cantrip once against the same target & does 13,. 13 is 6 less than 19
• Level 8 fighter bumps strength to 20 Wizard bumps int to 18
  • Fighter attacks twice for 4.5+5+1 for a total average of 10.5 each or an average total of 21.
  • Wizard casts his d12 cantrip once against the same target & does 13,. 13 is 8 less than 23
  • Level 11, fighter gets a third attack, wizard gets a third d12 on the generic cantrip
    • Fighter attacks three times for 4.5+5+1 for a total average of 8.5 each or an average total of 31.5.
    • Wizard casts his d12 cantrip once against the same target & does 19.5,. 19.5 is 12 less than 31.5
• I don't think the 4th attack at 20 & 4h cantrip die at 17 is relevant but it only continues to get worse
• Fun fact: if the wizard misses one attack with that cantrip, he does zero damage that round. If the fighter misses one he does 7.5/9.5/21 that round.

That matchup with a sword & board fighter using a one handed longsword should have been no contest or at least somewhat close, it's fr from it though. Do something like a greatsword & GWM things get silly fast

• Level 5 fighter & level 5 wizard, both have 16 in their primary stat. Fighter has a longsword & shield. Wizard has a generic d12 cantrip we are using to avoid "but damage type" complications that typically work against the d12 cantrips (poison & necrotic), using a generic cantrip instead of toll/poison spray improves the caster making it easier to show the fighter being left behind if that's happening.
  • Fighter attacks twice for 7+3+10 for a total average of 20 each or an average total of 40.
  • Wizard casts his d12 cantrip once against the same target & does 13,. 13 is 7 less than 40
• GM gives the fighter a +1 longsword, at level 6 the fighter bumps his strength to 18
  • Fighter attacks twice for 7+4+1+10 for a total average of 22 each or an average total of 44.
  • Wizard casts his d12 cantrip once against the same target & does 13,. 13 is 31 less than 44
• Level 8 fighter bumps strength to 20 Wizard bumps int to 18
  • Fighter attacks twice for7+5+1+10 for a total average of 23 each or an average total of 21.
  • Wizard casts his d12 cantrip once against the same target & does 13,. 13 is 33 less than 46
  • Level 11, fighter gets a third attack, wizard gets a third d12 on the generic cantrip
    • Fighter attacks three times for 7+5+1+10 for a total average of 23 each or an average total of 31.5.
    • Wizard casts his d12 cantrip once against the same target & does 19.5,. 19.5 is 49.5 less than 69
• I still don't think the 4th attack at 20 & 4h cantrip die at 17 is relevant but it only continues to get worse

The divergence gets worse if the wizard is using a normal d6 d8 or d10 cantrip that actually exists. That gap even with the odds so heavily stacked in favor of the fighter by using a theoretical cantrip that does not exist is so great that even if the wizard gets off a "big" nuke or manages to nuke a bunch of things to line up with dmg249's assumptions he's still lagging far behind.

"but why stick to damage only? aren't a lot of the wizard's best spells nondamage?" is the obvious question & I agree that they are. It has two big problems still. All of those spells are pegged to be roughly on par with martials using no feats& no magic weapons but that's a silly situation that really only occurs at low levels where resist nonmagic b/p/s is unusual & games where the GM explicitly chooses to use some kind of screw the martial monster(s) they have not provided a way to bypass it. There are basically no feats that improve a caster's ability to cast spells (nondamage ones especially) in any fashion even close to the dramatic step up as something like that longword+shield to greatsword+GWM. Factor on top of all that the fact that any leveled spell consumes a resource(spell slot) while nearly all of those nondamage spells tend towards being concentration & the gap widens even before considering the frequency of save to nullify then free save every round to dismiss on those spells.

Some of this could have been avoided by giving more concentration spells a hex-like move the spell as a bonus action, using concentration less, spells with better power, less costly scaling of spells, or not enacting such an excessive number of safeguards working in parallel against the LFQW of past editions.

look it is not just the damage or the being hard to kill.

martial overall lack two things dynamism beyond dm gift and out of combat use (the rogue is the best in this area).
I tend to end up with few magic items and most of the super good ones cost an attunement slot.

also, I believe player level should be used to determine who down to earth things can be low level being more normal and anything beyond 9 being for more than mortals or at least more than everyone else, with level 18 to 20 being the crazy stuff tm.