D&D 5E Do you find alignment useful in any way?

[pemerton]

People calling for the removal of alignment for the betterment of the game has ever been thus and part of the traditional nerddom debate. What’s new now is some are wrapping it up within the wider new moral panic and are making the argument for removal on the grounds that it is harmful for others. That is the censorship I’m calling out here.

How is it censorship? Who is being censored? What publication is being forbidden, or publisher being punished?

I’ve already explained why it’s in D&D as that meta physical construct, informed by the literature.

I don't agree with your reading of the literature. REH's Conan doesn't depend upon any metaphysics of law and chaos, or good and evil.

JRRT's work depends upon a slightly metaphorical presentation of a standard Christian conception of creation and moral obligation. That doesn't need anything like the D&D alignment system to represent it.

 

[Cadence]

I don't agree with your reading of the literature. REH's Conan doesn't depend upon any metaphysics of law and chaos, or good and evil.

JRRT's work depends upon a slightly metaphorical presentation of a standard Christian conception of creation and moral obligation. That doesn't need anything like the D&D alignment system to represent it.

Going back, I didn't find the post from the one you're responding to about the literature. Did they actually cite Conan and LotR as reasons for alignment instead of Elric and Anderson's books?

[Edit: In the original they were apparently talking about Orcs in LotR.]

I mean, surely you're aware of all four and aren't claiming that because alignment isn't needed to portray some of the foundational inspirational works that it isn't needed for any of them? If we're taking out things that aren't explicitly in LotR, the D&D elves are too short lived and far too close to humans in power, and the possible character levels in D&D go far too high. If it's things that don't go with Conan then healing clerics, magical paladins, and low level casters are extraneous? Gnomes don't seem to serve any purpose in those two anywhere (ok, maybe gnomes aren't a good example of something vital to D&D...),. And, what's up with the so called 'Vancian" casting (or, alternatively, where is the rest of Vance except some of the spells names? I want my flying cars, spell bearing servitors, and fit throwing sun).

 

[Oofta]

How is it censorship? Who is being censored? What publication is being forbidden, or publisher being punished?

Definition of censor: "to delete (a word or passage of text)"

You want to delete the words indicating alignment. Censorship does not have to be entire publications.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Definition of censor: "to delete (a word or passage of text)"

You want to delete the words indicating alignment. Censorship does not have to be entire publications.

So it was censorship when they removed THAC0? Ok, mate.

 

[transmission89]

Going back, I didn't find the post from the one you're responding to about the literature. Did they actually cite Conan and LotR as reasons for alignment instead of Elric and Anderson's books?

I mean, surely you're aware of all four and aren't claiming that because alignment isn't needed to portray some of the foundational inspirational works that it isn't needed for any of them? If we''re taking out things that aren't explicitly in LotR, the D&D elves are too short lived and far too close to humans in power, and the possible character levels in D&D go far too high. If it's things that don't go with Conan then healing clerics, magical paladins, and low level casters are extraneous? Gnomes don't seem to serve any purpose in those two anywhere (ok, maybe gnomes aren't a good example of something vital tonD&D...), what's up with the so called 'Vancian" casting (or, alternatively, where is the rest of Vance except some of the spells names? I want my flying cars, spell bearing servitors, and fit throwing sun).

Indeed, I didn’t call out specific works beyond LOTR as that pertained to my discussion of orcs. Indeed, alignment is Morecockian. And indeed the reason theres’s a bit of everything is because D&D is a pastiche of a lot of that literature and mythology!
If only Gary had provided us an appendix that explained this and listed a lot of his inspirational material in it, a lot of this could have been avoided!

But thank you for your supportive explanation to those in need!

 

[FrozenNorth]

You want to? Add mechanical penalties for bonds, traits, etc. I guarantee you that those threads would happen. Thing is, that doesn't apply to alignment anymore. People are arguing over the past with these threads, not the present. There are no longer mechanics involved. It's time to let it go.

This is just incorrect. The people posting here have had bad experiences with alignment in 5e.

Among other things, people don’t like it when a DM tells them that their alignment is not what they wrote on their character sheet. I have never seen a DM do that to a character’s BIPF.

 

[transmission89]

So it was censorship when they removed THAC0? Ok, mate.

Oh my days, are we going out of our way to be purposefully obtuse here? Censorship is not just removal of content. It is removed for reasons as being deemed harmful/offensive by certain groups, organisations, interests etc.

 

[Oofta]

So it was censorship when they removed THAC0? Ok, mate.

They replaced THAC0 with something that achieved exactly the same thing with simplified math.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

They replaced THAC0 with something that achieved exactly the same thing with simplified math.

So removing the different damage table for weapons when used against large foes was censorship then? Or removing any of the other myriad nonsensical rules that AD&D was cluttered with?

Seriously, sometimes rules and other content just gets removed because they function poorly, are needless clutter or do no longer with the mechanical or thematic vision the writers are going for. That's a normal part of game design.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Or, without alignment, they could be used for either purpose depending on the needs of the adventure!

Also, it opens the option that different meazels might react differently.

Neveer understood the monolith approach to intelligent monsters (outside devils and the like).