D&D General My Problem(s) With Halflings, and How To Create Engaging/Interesting Fantasy Races

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Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero
And the 5e gnome could just stop at Forest Gnome and be perfect, tbh, but some folks needed the 3.5 hill gnome with light tinkering for whatever reason.
Pop culture depictions, starting with Dragonlance and brought to its widest audience with World of Warcraft, with other stops along the way.

I don't think there would have been anything game-breaking if forest gnomes also had proficiency with tinkers tools -- "hold the phone, he gets to be a TINKER for free?!" -- instead of having hill gnomes being a separate subrace. (Back to my unified theory, in other words.)
 

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Cadence

Legend
Supporter
I mean whether something is in 'uncommon' or 'common' section is completely irrelevant as long as they're in the book. Though of course dividing them in these two categories in the first place is just silly.

I wonder if dividing them could be supplemented with a few sentences to signal to new DMs that not every world needs to be a kitchen sink and that they can replicate their vision (if their players are also interested) by what they choose to include it exclude a given campaign world.
 
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jayoungr

Legend
Supporter
Sure, "its not their thing" - so they should play a human, no? Or perhaps ask their DM to make elves just like humans so they can play a prettier human with pointy ears ;).
Yes, but I get the feeling you're looking down on that option. Because it's the easy way out.

The word "flaw" implies that there's something wrong from a design perspective with nonhumans with regards to their limited thematic nature, which I think is a misperception.
I mean "flaw" in the sense of "barrier to personal satisfaction in the game," which is particular to the player. It doesn't mean there's a design problem; it means there's a mismatch with the individual.

I'll get a little personal here. I work with a DM who absolutely loves doing the detailed worldbuilding thing. We've been playtesting a sci-fi setting he's written, where the species include various really alien options, like blobs and floating brains, and even the more humanesque species have very detailed cultures a la the Star Trek examples. I can tell he loves thinking up this stuff and that he's very proud of the diversity in his setting. And I do my best to make characters that will fit into those games--but I just can't ever seem to connect with them. It feels like too much space has already been filled in for me, or maybe the wrong kind of space for the way my brain works. The characters turn out lifeless and cardboard, and I don't enjoy playing them very much. They feel like all gimmick and no substance.

And I feel guilty as heck because the DM put in so much work, because I want to make characters that fit his world, and because in theory, I'm fully on board with the idea of limitations sparking creativity. It's not that I don't understand the principle or the appeal; it just doesn't lead to me creating characters that I consider to be successful. For me. For the DM himself, and players like him, it's probably glorious and stimulating.
 
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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Pop culture depictions, starting with Dragonlance and brought to its widest audience with World of Warcraft, with other stops along the way.

I don't think there would have been anything game-breaking if forest gnomes also had proficiency with tinkers tools -- "hold the phone, he gets to be a TINKER for free?!" -- instead of having hill gnomes being a separate subrace. (Back to my unified theory, in other words.)
Yeah I agree. My forest gnome rogue is also a tinker, though, so I am biased lol.
 

why they have 5% can likely be based on the fact they are part of the phb.
I understated. It's 6% compared to the 4.5% of gnomes. Roll the gnomes into the halflings and you've enough weight for a PHB race to stand on a level with the others.
a group of frames who only care for comfort will not be good at hiding because that defies the laws matter and basic biology.
Then find this "group of frames". Because the idea halflings "care only for comfort" is ridiculous and stands in direct contradiction to halfling lore in any edition. They enjoy their comforts, sure. But there's more to them than that.
plus nothing ever said in the legendarium about the shire being hidden, also we are not in lotr we are in dnd which is far more profoundly different than you seem to notice.
Halflings are noted by Tolkien as being extremely good at hiding. They didn't need to in The Shire - but even in Tolkien they didn't just live in The Shire. In more dangerous environments they'd play up their stealth skills - remember that Bilbo was hired as a burglar despite no experience.
no, the rock gnomes are because nobody could find a niche for them and then they added that so that is their role now making cloak work stuff.
So the PHB gnomes are "halfling with magic" and something entirely disconnected.
It's almost like those two examples are the same thing and the only difference is the arbitrary decisions of the designers.

If we want to talk slaughtering "having no niche" sacred cows we really should be talking about half elves and half orcs.
And yet in 2020 both half-races were in the five most popular. The thing is that I think that half-orcs could easily be replaced; their niche is that of the strong beefy guys and either orcs or goliaths could cover that role neatly.
I think the best discussion is where part of this thread has gone, in that you could (fairly I think) argue that halflings deserve to be taken out of the ICONIC FOUR pedestal and demoted back to the dragon born tier and I'd actually be in support of that move.
I'm not sure that dragonborn and tieflings aren't making their case to turn things into an iconic 5. The most recent information I can find has both of them as more popular than either elves or dwarves.
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Basically you have the BIG 3 that would be considered 99% universal, the middle tier of "has subclasses" that are frequently used, and the bottom tier no subclass niche options. That makes sense to me.
Humans, half-elves, and dragonborn as the big three? And demote elves, dwarves, and gnomes to the "legacy" second tier options?

Because like it or not dragonborn and tieflings are here to stay and are core.
What doesn't make sense is taking a tip tier PHB inclusion and demoting it to no-tier status.
There is that.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
I'll get a little personal here. I work with a DM who absolutely loves doing the detailed worldbuilding thing. We've been playtesting a sci-fi setting he's written, where the species include various really alien options, like blobs and floating brains, and even the more humanesque cultures have very detailed cultures a la the Star Trek examples. I can tell he loves thinking up this stuff and that he's very proud of the diversity in his setting. And I do my best to make characters that will fit into those games--but I just can't ever seem to connect with them. It feels like too much space has already been filled in for me. The characters turn out lifeless and cardboard, and I don't enjoy playing them very much. They feel like all gimmick and no substance.
That's how I feel about a lot of adventure paths and other pre-fab campaigns. Not all of them, but a lot of them; there doesn't seem to be much room for who my character is or what their motivations are. It's just "there's a threat, no one else can handle it, so we need to save the world." That's a very one-size-fits-all take on a character, and while that makes sense for a prepackaged campaign, it's not one that lends itself to getting too deep into who my character is. It's why I like sandboxes better, because they lend themselves to being much more character-driven.

(Of course, as I mentioned, I do like some adventure paths, mostly where the premise regarding what the threat is and how it's meant to be handled are interesting to me.)
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Pop culture depictions, starting with Dragonlance and brought to its widest audience with World of Warcraft, with other stops along the way.

I don't think there would have been anything game-breaking if forest gnomes also had proficiency with tinkers tools -- "hold the phone, he gets to be a TINKER for free?!" -- instead of having hill gnomes being a separate subrace. (Back to my unified theory, in other words.)
Yeah absolutely. No reason the forest gnome doesn’t fit in the Gnomish culture described in the 3.5 Races of Stone, and those gnomes could talk to animals!
Halflings are noted by Tolkien as being extremely good at hiding. They didn't need to in The Shire - but even in Tolkien they didn't just live in The Shire. In more dangerous environments they'd play up their stealth skills - remember that Bilbo was hired as a burglar despite no experience.
I think the Shire is said, in te Hobbit IIRC, to be so cleverly built that the occasional tall folk that bumbles through often doesn’t realize they have walked through a civilized place!
 

Mercurius

Legend
Yes, but I get the feeling you're looking down on that option. Because it's the easy way out.
No, not at all. Whatever works on a group by group basis (and player by player). I mean, 5E offers the three pillars, and every group emphasizes and incorporates them differently. While that's not the only way to frame this, the point is that there's no right way to do it - just the right way for the group. My group tends to emphasize exploration and combat, and roleplaying only as it serves the narrative and not as an end unto itself. Meaning, we don't go down the LARPing route and there's a limit to how much we, the players, inhabit our characters. We're a pretty casual group, though.
I mean "flaw" in the sense of "barrier to personal satisfaction in the game," which is particular to the player. It doesn't mean there's a design problem; it means there's a mismatch with the individual.

I'll get a little personal here. I work with a DM who absolutely loves doing the detailed worldbuilding thing. We've been playtesting a sci-fi setting he's written, where the species include various really alien options, like blobs and floating brains, and even the more humanesque cultures have very detailed cultures a la the Star Trek examples. I can tell he loves thinking up this stuff and that he's very proud of the diversity in his setting. And I do my best to make characters that will fit into those games--but I just can't ever seem to connect with them. It feels like too much space has already been filled in for me. The characters turn out lifeless and cardboard, and I don't enjoy playing them very much. They feel like all gimmick and no substance.

And I feel guilty as heck because the DM put in so much work, because I want to make characters that fit his world, and because in theory, I'm fully on board with the idea of limitations sparking creativity. It's not that I don't understand the principle or the appeal; it just doesn't lead to me creating characters that I consider to be successful. For me. For the DM himself, and players like him, it's probably glorious and stimulating.
I totally get that and wouldn't really enjoy playing a blob myself, at least not more than as a one-shot. I tend to play characters that I can relate to, even if they are very different from me. So no shardminds for me. I do like playing elves and try to be "elvish," but I also don't get too deep into thespianism, so there's a limit. But to address your previous point, if I merely want to play a "prettier human with pointy ears" and not get into the nonhuman elements of elvishness and what makes them different from humans, then I'll just play a human. If I'm going to play an elf, I do want to play something different.

I think also that your example illustrates the difference between worldbuilding as hobby/art in and of itself, worldbuiliding for storytelling, and worldbuilding for gaming. My worldbuilding for my novel(s) is very different and far more detailed than what I do for my game, which always has the game itself in mind. It is a complex topic, though, which I could write endlessly about, but don't want to go too far down the rabbit hole, not least because I don't want to be overly self-indulgent ;).

But it does sound like your DM might confuse this, and forget his players and the game itself in the process. It sounds like his worldbuilding would be better suited to story writing, or simply for the fun of worldbuilding (as a hobby/art form). Out of curiosity, has he ever asked if you are interested in playing these sorts of alien races?
 


Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero
I think the Shire is said, in te Hobbit IIRC, to be so cleverly built that the occasional tall folk that bumbles through often doesn’t realize they have walked through a civilized place!
Gnomes IMC use clever landscaping to guide outsiders past their enclaves, without ever knowing there was anything "hidden." It's a nicely low-magic way for halflings and other hidden races to stay that way without having to drag in a high level druid or illusionist into the mix.
 

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