D&D 5E Is 5e's Success Actually Bad for Other Games?

[darjr]

I think it's also due to so many new people entering since 5e that haven't had a look at 4e and are now doing so. I think that translates to other versions and games too. I'm in Matt's streams a lot and see a lot of new folks discovering 4e.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I suspect that people's answers and conclusion to this question will largely depend on their pre-existing attitudes towards 5e.

I would definitely be curious though about whether people echoing the "a rising tide lifts all ships" sentiment actually run non-5e games (and how regularly) or if it's just something self-reassuring that 5e people tell themselves. I don't know, and I don't have an opinion one way or another.


I could see that. Matt Colville recently said in a Twitch stream that his experiences running 5e have made him realize that he prefers running 4e and that it had tighter, more modern game design. IME, there has definitely been a greater retrospective look at what 4e did right now that we collectively have some years on 5e.

My main group has played some non-D&D games in the past, but is mostly resistant to trying other games. The one exception being if someone homebrews a new system (this happens time to time because most of us are DMs who like to tinker) in which case everyone eagerly gets on board.

My other group (mostly newbies, but we've been on hiatus due to the Pandemic) would probably just prefer to play 5e. I haven't actually tried to sell them on a different system, but neither have they brought it up.

My third group (haven't played with them in a while either because of burnout) enjoys trying new systems. They're pretty much always up for something different.

Personally, I think I'm probably the most open to playing different game out of my various groups. I have dozens (maybe hundreds?) of games that I own, have read, and would love to play, but can't say whether I'll ever have the chance. Such is life.

 

[overgeeked]

Speaking from the experience of my groups, I just had two leave OSR games to return to 5e because of familiarity, a "middle ground" approach, and ease of finding resources (in person, online). They have resisted trying other systems (Cthulhu, Savage Worlds, Pathfinder 1 or 2), because 5e does everything they want it to do.
Do you think 5e is so successful that it actually takes away players from other systems?

Yes. Absolutely. D&D sucks all the air out of the room, hoovers up the vast majority of the players, and is such the default role-playing game most people have to describe non-D&D games by how they differ from D&D. It’s so dominant people often say they’re “playing D&D” as a stand in for any and all RPGs. It’s so dominant that people would rather kludge 5E to handle any possible game, genre, or playstyle instead of play a game designed to do the thing they actually want to do.

It’s a fun game. And 5E is the best WotC edition of the game. But it would be nice to have D&D not be so overwhelmingly dominant.

Just look at the forums thread and post counts. 45.2k threads and 1.5m messages for D&D. Plus 76.9k threads and 1.2m messages for Pathfinder & Starfinder. So a total of 123.1k threads and 2.7m messages for D&D variants. And 114.2k threads and 2.3m messages for all other RPGs combined.

Chaosium recently crowed about how 1 in 10 Roll20 games are Call of Cthulhu. That’s great. At a guess 7 in 10 are D&D related and 2 in 10 are all other games combined. D&D is fun and a good game, but it’s not good enough or fun enough to be that dominant.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

Honestly, no idea. I don't think anyone can prove one way or another without looking at alternate timelines to confirm what the industry would look like if 5E failed or never existed, and we can't do that.

I lean towards "no," but I can't really prove that, so I won't try.

 

[Parmandur]

Yes. Absolutely. D&D sucks all the air out of the room, hoovers up the vast majority of the players, and is such the default role-playing game most people have to describe non-D&D games by how they differ from D&D. It’s so dominant people often say they’re “playing D&D” as a stand in for any and all RPGs. It’s so dominant that people would rather kludge 5E to handle any possible game, genre, or playstyle instead of play a game designed to do the thing they actually want to do.

It’s a fun game. And 5E is the best WotC edition of the game. But it would be nice to have D&D not be so overwhelmingly dominant.

Just look at the forums thread and post counts. 45.2k threads and 1.5m messages for D&D. Plus 76.9k threads and 1.2m messages for Pathfinder & Starfinder. So a total of 123.1k threads and 2.7m messages for D&D variants. And 114.2k threads and 2.3m messages for all other RPGs combined.

Chaosium recently crowed about how 1 in 10 Roll20 games are Call of Cthulhu. That’s great. At a guess 7 in 10 are D&D related and 2 in 10 are all other games combined. D&D is fun and a good game, but it’s not good enough or fun enough to be that dominant.

Without D&D, there would be no other RPGs at all.

Frankly, quite a few other games I've seen could be improved by making them more like D&D.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

Without D&D, there would be no other RPGs at all.

Frankly, quite a few other games I've seen could be improved by making them more like D&D.

Eh, I think someone would have hit on similar concepts eventually. Warhammer was already experimenting with fantasy wargaming at almost the same time, if D&D never happened it's possible that Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay would have become the first popular RPG.

 

[overgeeked]

I could see that. Matt Colville recently said in a Twitch stream that his experiences running 5e have made him realize that he prefers running 4e and that it had tighter, more modern game design. IME, there has definitely been a greater retrospective look at what 4e did right now that we collectively have some years on 5e.

Any idea which stream that was? The most recent where he's finally got a haircut?

 

[Steampunkette]

Eh, I think someone would have hit on similar concepts eventually. Warhammer was already experimenting with fantasy wargaming at almost the same time, if D&D never happened it's possible that Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay would have become the first popular RPG.

Gygax did Chainmail and it's Fantasy Supplement in 1971. OD&D was 1974.

Warhammer started in 1983.

"Same Time" being a decade apart with Warhammer clearly having taken inspiration from Chainmail. What with Elves being good against Undead, based on Chainmail's Elves being Paralysis/Sleep immune as a Rock-Paper-Scissors advantage over undead units in Chainmail which carried forward into D&D.

Games Workshop was also the primary importer of D&D to the UK in the 70s and 80s. Sooo.... >.>

Now you could instead argue that Warhammer was an advancement of Reaper with it's smaller-unit combat and fantasy characters... But that's literally what Chainmail was. And Reaper came out in 1978. Well after both Chainmail and OD&D...

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

If I want to buy sourcebooks about crunch I choose my favorite game. If I want lore and background, I can read fandom wiki. I can get used to two or three game systems, but mastering or being fluent with a system then only the favorite. I bought Eclipse Phase RPG, and I love the "fluff", I am not use yet to the abilitie scores. They are too different.

The success of 5th Ed is because is the easiest system to be learnt, and known thanks the main media, and because new generations are enoughly used to fantasy. Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings trilogy is 20 years ago, and Harry Potter's first movie.

Maybe some players will want to try other titles. Here it is the opportunity for other franchises, for example Call of Chulthu or World of Darkness.

Other way to promote a franchise is the videogame adaptations. I guess lots of Vampire: the Masquerade discovered the line thanks the videogames.

 

[Parmandur]

Eh, I think someone would have hit on similar concepts eventually. Warhammer was already experimenting with fantasy wargaming at almost the same time, if D&D never happened it's possible that Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay would have become the first popular RPG.

Dungeons & Dragons was out for nearly a decade when Warhammer got started. It's hard to say if something similar would have happened eventually...but very possibly not.