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D&D 5E Spellcasters and Balance in 5e: A Poll

Should spellcasters be as effective as martial characters in combat?

  • 1. Yes, all classes should be evenly balanced for combat at each level.

    Votes: 11 5.3%
  • 2. Yes, spellcasters should be as effective as martial characters in combat, but in a different way

    Votes: 111 53.9%
  • 3. No, martial characters should be superior in combat.

    Votes: 49 23.8%
  • 4. No, spellcasters should be superior in combat.

    Votes: 8 3.9%
  • 5. If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends?

    Votes: 27 13.1%

  • Poll closed .
What do we mean by Balance here? Everyone just assumes combat. Fighters are pretty much fine in combat.

Take the following situations for a level 17 party.

  • You need to find the location of the prison of the fallen Angel who stole the key to the dead gods prison.
  • You need to negotiate with one of the major powers of the planes to find out how you can get in and out of this prison.
  • You need to research how the dead god was killed and imprisoned the last time he threatened the multiverse, which also means finding the one library in the multiverse where record of him has not been wiped from existence.
  • Once you reach the prison of the fallen Angel you need to find your way through the magical labyrinth created by the Lady of Pain, out of the fallen Angels own shame and past to reach it's centre.
  • In order to do all of the above the party must plane hop and travel to diverse locations.

How many of these encounters/ situations can the Fighter usefully contribue to?

These are the sort of situations the 3e tier system had in mind when the tier system was made. It certainly wasn't just about combat.
 

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Doesn’t make them interesting.
Then nothing is interesting. If illusions, charms, and other tricks arent interesting enough for you, you should try being a friggin fighter who gets to hit stuff and... hit stuff slightly more.

Yet here you sit, telling those who want a decent martial class that we're being unreasonable for not accepting the garbage scraps the caster players are willing to toss our way. "Fine, you can have an extra half your proficiency bonus to jumping, but anything more and my precious v-tude will need the fainting couch!"
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
Balance is a canard here. A lot of what people are voicing is a desire for quality of life changes that would make playing a martial character feel better. They like the fantasy of playing a warrior, but would like more out of combat prowess or more engaging mechanics. I know I personally would like to see a class that fills the same conceptual space as a fighter, but like requires more of a deft hand to play well. We could call it something like Warblade.
 

What do we mean by Balance here? Everyone just assumes combat. Fighters are pretty much fine in combat.

Take the following situations for a level 17 party.

  • You need to find the location of the prison of the fallen Angel who stole the key to the dead gods prison.
  • You need to negotiate with one of the major powers of the planes to find out how you can get in and out of this prison.
  • You need to research how the dead god was killed and imprisoned the last time he threatened the multiverse, which also means finding the one library in the multiverse where record of him has not been wiped from existence.
  • Once you reach the prison of the fallen Angel you need to find your way through the magical labyrinth created by the Lady of Pain, out of the fallen Angels own shame and past to reach it's centre.
  • In order to do all of the above the party must plane hop and travel to diverse locations.

How many of these encounters/ situations can the Fighter usefully contribue to?

These are the sort of situations the 3e tier system had in mind when the tier system was made. It certainly wasn't just about combat.
They can at least potentially contribute to all except the last one as they seem like situations that would involve some skill checks. The last one seems to be clear 'requires a spell' territory though. But for example the sage fighter I suggested earlier would be handy for several of these as they would have knowledge of history of the situation and could effectively research related information.
 

They can't, though. To be equal to the martials in combat, the spellcaster has to go through a LOT of slots which don't come back until after a long rest. They can't maintain that pace through 6-8 encounters in a day. Further, if they do that, then they aren't using the slots that they don't have outside of combat, either.

Spellcasters have to pick and choose how effective they are going to be in and out of combat. If the caster wants to conserve slots to be able to cast things like knock and such, then they are going to be using more cantrips in combat and they won't be nearly as effective as the marital PC. Further, a lot of the out of combat spells have downsides to their use that many DMs don't engage, which makes them stronger than they are meant to be.
People don't play 6-8 encounter days though. Its a bunch of combat grinding that just doesn't play out organically without variant rest rules. The entire balance premise is flawed because most games aren't hack and slash dungeon crawls with inorganic hour long naps in enemy territory.

You're traveling through the wilderness - casters win without variant rest rules. You really think there's going to be 6-8 random encounters in a day? You have 2 months of downtime between adventures. Casters get narrative control through spells. Martials get... skill checks that the casters can also do.

Honestly, full casters shouldn't even GET skill proficiencies.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I started playing D&D in 1981 and played 1E more than all other combined. It was true, the designers have said it was true and they purposely intended for the fighter to be the main hero in the game. Gygax purposely made the other characters less powerful

The fighter was intended to be the hero or knight in shining armor and the others were intended to be sidekicks. There is even a video online from one of the designers about an argument with Gygax over making magic missile an automatic hit because Gygax wanted to make sure the wizard was inferior to the fighter and Gygax thought an automatic 3 points of damage would put it too close to the fighter who had to swing to make 8 average per round when not counting strength (which would later be bumped to 16 by Gygax when he wrote unearthed arcana).
Automatic 3? At 3rd level it was 2d4+2 and hit automatically. By 9th level it was 5d4+5 for a 1st level spell. That's a lot better than 8. The 16 doesn't apply, because the UA was a book of optional rules only, most of which I never saw allowed by any DM.

In any case, since we're talking level 1 or 2 as shown by the 3 damage, while the fighter was MAYBE hitting one Orc for maybe 8 damage, the Wizard was putting the other 4d4 of them to sleep with a single spell that had no save.
Then you had the spell Chaos, which would not allow a save ..... UNLESS THE TARGET WAS A FIGHTER and then he could save.
Okay.
Look at spells like the cleric's spiritual hammer, a 2nd level spell that does a lot less damage than a 1st level fighter can do. At 13th level a wizard can throw up mordankainans sword with a 14 THACO that does an average of 12 points of damage. A 13th-level fighter with a 9 strength and a TH Sword has an 8 THACO and can do 19 a turn. Add in the magic and strength bonuses common at that level and he is easily doing 3 times as much damage considering he is hitting a lot more.
Clerics need not apply. In 1e they were pretty much heal bots and that was about it. As for second level spells, Stinking Cloud rocked harder than any Fighter ever could at low levels.

And thanks for the chuckle. A 13th level Wizard who was using Mordenkainen's Sword instead of good spells deserved to lose.
And the vast majorty either had level restrictions, hit point maximums or saving throws that a high-level monster would usually beat. If he had magic resistance, the magic user had to beat that before he even had to save.
Not usually, but in any case you're moving the goal posts here. We're discussing Wizards and Fighters, not monsters with or without magic resistence.
For example, death spell had no save and came at 11th level, but would only affect creatures of 8th-level. A 11th-level fighter will take down an 8th-level foe in 2 rounds, all day long.
Since we're 11th level here, the Wizard puts a Wall of Force dome over the Fighter which there is no save against. Then he casts Transmute Rock to Mud under the now trapped Fighter, again with no save. It works since the magic is targeting the stone under the Fighter and not going through the Wall of Force. Then the Wizard changes it back to stone encasing the now sunken in mud Fighter. Fight over and not one save was allowed.
The only truely good combat spells for a high level 1E magic user are imprisonment and maze.
Honorable mentions:
Meteor Swarm is decent because it gives massive damage, which is still high with a save.
Power Word Stun is decent because there is no save and the hp limit is high, but because the effects are not that bad or debilitating, it is just decent. It can reliably and without fail degrade most enemies of even high level for a few rounds.
You never had a good Wizard it seems. A LOT of spells when used creatively like I did above, become auto death for things, including Fighters.
If they had 3E or 5E saves then some of the spells would be better, but as is they were not reliable when you really wanted to use them. On the other hand the fighter reliably destroyed enemies.
In 3e spells were so reliable that a Fighter had no chance outside of a very generous white room of beating a Wizard. At least not once they got to 5th level or so.

In all the years I've seen the 3e Fighter vs. Wizard comparisons, you are the only person to have the chutzpah to try and tell me that they were balanced. Even the most die hard Fighter lovers just argued about how they got the short end of things.
In 1E Command only lasts one round and you get a saving throw if you have 6 or more hit dice and he only needs an 8 to save. Yes she could do this and prolong the inevitable if he kept rolling below an 8.
This is completely wrong. YOUR command lasts 1 round with a save. Gods have abilities that include a special command ability.

"STANDARD DIVINE ABILITIES
Unless otherwise specified, all gods and demigods have the following special abilities, above and beyond whatever other abilities are listed:

Command: as the spell, but lasting 2 rounds for lesser gods and 3 rounds for greater gods. There is no saving throw vs. this divine ability."

Lolth's lasts 2 rounds as she is a lesser goddess.
Moreover Lolth was a goddess, and this speaks to how powerful fighters are. A low teens level fighter can fight her and have a reasonable chance of winning. A low teens level mage has no chance and even an Archmage is going to be severely pushed due to her magic resistance and low saves.
No chance. He has no save and can do nothing while she rips him a new one.
The reason I used Lolth in my example is I fought her as a player and then later a group fought her with me as a DM in I think it was the Vault of the Drow module. In both of these she was defeated in the first couple rounds by the fighter.
He clearly didn't play her correctly.
 

Balance is a canard here. A lot of what people are voicing is a desire for quality of life changes that would make playing a martial character feel better. They like the fantasy of playing a warrior, but would like more out of combat prowess or more engaging mechanics. I know I personally would like to see a class that fills the same conceptual space as a fighter, but like requires more of a deft hand to play well. We could call it something like Warblade.
And that's still battle master. Like you said, 'fills the same conceptual space.' Sorry that you don't like it how they did it in this edition, but creating duplicate classes for same concepts for purely mechanic reasons just leads to confusing mess.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Sure, lets also ditch the wizard because the arcane trickster can cast a few spells too.
This has came up a few times and it makes absolutely no sense to me. The existing classes are all concept first. Some are better concepts than others to base a class on, but that's their origin. They also already exist and so any new class has to navigate around the conceptual space they already occupy.

The Wizard concept is not just 'more magic':
Wizards' lives are seldom mundane. The closest a wizard is likely to come to an ordinary life is working as a sage or lecturer in a library or university, teaching others the secrets of the muitiverse. Other wizards sell their services as diviners, serve in military forces, or pursue lives of crime or domination,

But the lure of knowledge and power calls even the most unadventurous wizards out of the safety of their libraries and laboratories and into crumbling ruins and lost cities. Most wizards believe that their counterparts in ancient civilizations knew secrets of magic that have been lost to the ages, and discovering those secrets could unlock the path to a power greater than any magic available in the present age.
Wizards study magical knowledge and want more of it. They devote their lives to pursue it. Eldritch Knights do not fulfill this concept.

Eldritch Knights on the other hand:
The archetypal Eldritch Knight combines the martial mastery common to all fighters with a careful study of magic. Eldritch Knights use magical techniques similar to those practiced by wizards. They focus their study on two of the eight schools of magic: abjuration and evocation. Abjuration spells grant an Eldritch Knight additional protection in battle, and evocation spells deal damage to many foes at once, extending the fighter's reach in combat. These knights learn a comparatively small number of spells, committing them to memory instead of keepiiig them in a spellbook.
They are explicitly a combination of Fighting and Wizardry.

The Battlemaster entry is more generic:
Those who emulate the archetypal Battle Master employ martial techniques passed down through generations. To a Battle Master, combat is an academic field, sometimes including subjects beyond battle such as weaponsmithing and calligraphy. Not every fighter absorbs the lessons of history, theory, and artistry that are reflected in the Battle Master archetype, but those who do are well-rounded fighters of great skill and knowledge.
Martial Techniques that focus on leadership, inspiration and tactics such as Rally, Commander's Strike, and Maneuvering Strike would be the martial techniques of a leader martial (aka Warlord). The Battlemaster isn't said to combine fighting with Warlordry as the EK is said to combine Fighting and Wizardry and that causes him to have a different conceptual space. Conceptually, he's not a combination fighter/leader. He is THE leader fighter.

In an alternate universe of 5e Design that included the Warlord and then had the battlemaster created - the Battlemaster may very well have been defined as Fighting and Warlordry combination. But that's not the universe we are in.
 
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