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D&D General My Problem(s) With Halflings, and How To Create Engaging/Interesting Fantasy Races

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pemerton

Legend
did not his work have more or less the opposite problem of just being kinda bleak, also how common the hobbits never seemed to care about the world it seems most odd?
The Hobbits in their Shire somewhat resemble the British - or at least the English - on their island. Like the English (as conceived of by JRRT), they are not easily roused but once roused will take the good over the evil side and will do the right thing.

Does Moorcock have the problem of being bleak? Maybe - I don't know it as well as I know JRRT. But even Shippey concedes that JRRT has a sentimental streak - Bill the Pony's survival being just one example.
 

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Mind of tempest

(he/him)advocate for 5e psionics
The Hobbits in their Shire somewhat resemble the British - or at least the English - on their island. Like the English (as conceived of by JRRT), they are not easily roused but once roused will take the good over the evil side and will do the right thing.

Does Moorcock have the problem of being bleak? Maybe - I don't know it as well as I know JRRT. But even Shippey concedes that JRRT has a sentimental streak - Bill the Pony's survival being just one example.
clearly, JRRT has never meet any English man in his life let alone the other 4 or 5 depending on the what was or was not once a separate thing.
as everyone here tend to not be roused out of apathy rather than contentedness and if they lack apathy they really want to go do something.
 


Cadence

Legend
Supporter
Um...Black Widow has never lost most of her hearing because of her bravery. Clint is brave to the point of foolishness. It's part of why in the comics he has many ex-wives, but no stable relationships. He does what's right, even if it's terrifying, and even if it will probably suck. He is definitely noticeably more brave than most of the heroes he fights beside, even thought they are indeed quite brave.

Did you mean Clint has many exes (not ex-wives)? Was he ever married except to Bobbi?
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
RE: Halflings as a sub-race of humans as a non-starter

Putting halflings as a sub-race of humans has come up a few times earlier in the thread, but that seemed problematic to me because it gets to... well, sub-races (sub-species, breeds, whatever) of humans which is connected to lots of real world bad-things when applied to currently living people.

In any case, I originally didn't like the idea as an origin even if it didn't have those issues. And I kind of liked the idea of them being a "found race" (did Iluvatar just have something too subtle in his song that the Valar missed it among the excitement about his first two children?).

But I woke up this morning wondering how their origins would work if it was just as an isolated group of humans that self-domesticated even further. Was wondering if hyper-domesticated was a term, but googling hyper-domesticated included the real condition of Williams Syndrome among others. And I'm pretty certain that's not a road to go down on discussion on this board or most places. So, anyway - I'm pretty sure halflings as a sub-race of humans would be off the table for WotC.


* As a tangent, if any of y'all study biological classification, I would be interested in a good article comparing how ornithologists and mammalogists decide on what should count as a species. I sometimes doubt that the later would have classified the black-capped chickadee and Carolina chickadee as separate species, or have all of the very similar lories/lorikeets in the the various islands as separate species.
 

Oofta

Legend
A comment not directed at me? Both of those posts you quoted and were responding to me. And, before you asked those questions I had already, around three times, posted what I thought would be a perfectly fine rewrite for halflings. Making them a race of diplomats and lorekeepers, a race that people call on to act as a third-party and arbitrate between people. A race that is often found on the road or the river, traveling from one place to the next, and acting as the glue that holds the civilized races together.

I also would like them to have a better origin story than "we were found exactly like we are". The origin myth mentions Yondalla had a vision for them, what was it? It mentions she raised some of them to godhood for their deeds, what deeds? Expanding upon that lore would help immensely in making it feel like it mattered instead of like it was tacked on.

And I've said these things, multiple times. And sure, you may be thinking "That doesn't sound that different from the halflings that exist. In fact, it could be exactly like that". But, the key difference is stating it explicitly. Making it canon that this is what halflings do, rather than making vague statements about how they get along with everyone. And, you will also note, that all of those things people keep accusing me of. Of wanting a war-mongering race, a conquering race, a race full of edge and darkness... is nowhere to be seen.

And yes, I took your "questions" as a criticism, because the same things keep getting lobbed at me as criticisms. Again, and again, and again, even when I have stated that that is not what I am interested in. That that is not what I am advocating for. Heck, I was literally the only one to respond to @Whizbang Dustyboots asking for people to give a version of halflings they'd be happy with. And somehow, people seem to be unaware of that.




I do not like canon halflings because they do not connect to the world at large. They end up either acting and playing the role of humans in human cities, except that they are shorter than normal, or they end up in places like the Shire completely divorced from the rest of the world. Much of their canon write up seems to ignore anything happening outside the borders of a halfling village, and many of the things described seem like they are meant solely for the entire race to be viewed as innocent children. While I have nothing wrong with innocent characters, the idea of the entire race being infantilized like that and needing protection from the other races rubs me the wrong way. It doesn’t feel like halflings are equals in the world, they feel like they are lesser whose survival is all because of luck and the protection of their bigger and stronger neighbors.

I find it very difficult to have things like “Lucky” or “Brave” show up in actual play. Lucky is a feature that only comes up on the player-side, by rerolling a 1. This means that in every instance a die does not roll a 1, halflings are not lucky. This is a problem, because luck is repeatedly touted as a defining feature of the race. I could also make random rolls be because the halfling was “lucky” but that runs the risk of alienating a player by making their character seem like they have no skill, only luck. I also can’t just have random acts of good luck happen to the halfling character, because that creates an imbalance and seems like favoritism in the party.

Brave, as I discussed, is the same way. Either I must actively look for ways to make the rest of the party not brave, or the halflings bravery is not special amongst the party members. Hawkeye is not particularly brave when fighting beside Black Widow, they are equals in that regard. So too is the halfling character not particularly brave when compared with their companions who are also usually brave heroes. It is the cowardly or cautious player that is more memorable, rather than the brave ones. This creates the same problem as with lucky, either I must take this common trait and have it be non-special, removing something from the halfling, or I must force the other players to be less brave, so that the halflings bravery can shine.

Finally, I find this list of traits, friendly, outgoing, curious, innocent, “salt of the earth”, honest, earnest, ect to be a very poor list to make them different. This describes many characters, and a lot of it describes gnomes or farmers in general, and that makes it hard to say that a halfling is a unique member of the party because they are friendly or curious. And since their place in the world is so vague and niche, their personality following is much harder to handle.



^^ That is 497 words. I summarized a bit, since you mentioned you had issues with me not having an easy time with their traits I had to include that, and I didn’t even get to mention their gods and religion, but you did give me an arbitrary limit to lay out everything. And If I missed anything, I’m sure I’d get docked for that when I brought it up later because I “didn’t mention it before”.

Okay, let me see if I can summarize a bit. I'll skip over the woe-is-me part where once again you claim a question was an accusation because that's just par for the course.

Given that you can and should do what makes sense for your campaign so I don't have to repeat it every time ...

You: they should be diplomats.
My answer: In my campaign the Renai (nomadic trader halflings) do this to a limited extent by spreading news of he world and delivering letters and messages. But true diplomats are very political and requires a lot of force of personality, something halflings are not known for. Being likeable doesn't really make you a diplomat.

You: they should be lore keepers.
My answer: that's quite out of left field. I don't see them caring about libraries of knowledge, nor is there any connection to their roots or lore.

You: Better origin story.
My answer: I've never met anyone that really cared about the origin story of a race. Is there even an origin story for humans? Or races other than dwarf and elf? I also think this should be setting specific. I mean mine would probably start with Ginnungagap for example, I doubt many others would.

You: characterize a question as an accusation
My answer: if you want to twist a question into something it's not I can't help you.

You: halflings don't "connect"
My answer: I don't even know what this means. Every race is just some extreme of humanity with minor set dressing. Elves are back-to-nature hippies (sort of), dwarves are nose-to-the-grindstone work hard play hard types and so on. I explained how they fit in to my world just fine. This is where it's confusing, you don't want them to be overly aggressive or political, but for better or worse that's largely what history records as being important.

You: halflings are just short people, children that ignore the world
My answer: many of the races live in small communities that have little to do with the outside world. For example firbolgs also ignore the outside world and just want to live in their forest homes. It's also well documented that people find short people less convincing and less attractive, I think this is a common prejudice people have whether conscious or not.

You: lucky doesn't show up
My answer: First, it's not up to the DM to dictate how a PC acts. Second, lucky is easy. A 1 that becomes a hit means you were aiming for the right knee of a foe and totally whiff only to land a solid hit on the left inner thigh and so on. Personally I leave it up to the player to describe if they want.

You: brave doesn't show up
Halflings are significantly less likely to be affected by anything that frightens, the proof is in the pudding so to speak. I think it's mostly up to the player though. I describe the difference between bravery and courage as the following. Bravery is doing what needs to be done because you have no fear, courage is doing what needs to be done despite your fear.

NOTE: both lucky and brave show up in game terms on a regular basis as traits.

You: I don't like their traits
My answer: that's the core of their identity, the aspect of humanity that they represent. Every race represents some aspect of humanity, are dwarves bad because some people are gruff and hard working? It's not wrong to not like it, but it's just an opinion. One a lot of people don't share.

In conclusion? All I can say is that you can't please everyone. I have no clue how you would change halflings other than the diplomat and lore keeper thing. I personally don't see that making sense as a base for the race.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
Early Moorcock was bleak, but he has mellowed with age, as has his hardcore communist ideology.

Was later Moorcock better written? I've only read the first volume of the Del Rey collected reprints. (The early surprised me of until I realized the author's age and previous writing experience).
 


jayoungr

Legend
Supporter
A halfling living among elves, is more like a human living among elves.
But isn't it your position that halflings are always "just humans"? Why single out the city halflings?

I think the problem is, its main trait Lucky, besides being subtle, is simply too underpowered. It feels negligible to me.
First: Lucky is a wonderful trait from a player's perspective. That get-out-jail-free card when a natural 1 comes up feels great--it's like the excitement of rolling advantage, only better in a way, because you know you have a chance to avert total disaster. And natural 1s come up often enough that you really get to feel lucky over the course of a campaign. And second: Lucky is the halfling's main mechanical trait, not their main cultural or roleplaying trait.

So what is left is a nonmagical human-like person who is short. Both the character concept and the implementation of its mechanics, feel too human.
Well yeah, if you discount the main mechanical distinctions (Lucky, Brave, Nimble) and the main cultural distinctions, then of course you're not left with much.
 
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Yaarel

🇮🇱He-Mage
But isn't it your position that halflings are always "just humans"? Why single out the city halflings?


First: Lucky is a wonderful trait from a player's perspective. That get-out-jail-free card when a natural 1 comes up feels great--it's like the excitement of rolling advantage. And natural 1s come up often enough that you really get to feel lucky over the course of a campaign. And second: Lucky is the halfling's main mechanical trait, not their main cultural or roleplaying trait.


Well yeah, if you discount the main mechanical distinctions (Lucky, Brave, Nimble) and the main cultural distinctions, then of course you're not left with much.
Correct. Halflings are too human.

City halflings are too much like city humans. Nomadic halflings are too much like nomadic humans.

Halflings living among elves are too much like humans living among elves.

Halflings are too human.

Humans can be brave. Humans can be nimble. Humans can even be lucky.

Halflings feel too human.
 

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