D&D 5E Giving the arcane gish an identity.

[Laurefindel]

Like "prestidigitation", from French, from preste ‘nimble’ + Latin digitus ‘finger’?

Or do you prefer "legerdemain", from French léger de main ‘dexterous’, literally ‘light of hand’?

hum, just for fun...

"magedeguer", from French mage de guerre (wizard of war)

"escudessor" from old French escu de sort (shield of magic/fate)

"pitchexspels", from Quebec Fran-glish slang pitcheux de spells (thrower of spells)

 

[Bolares]

Sounds like a similar issue to the ranger. I made a thread on reddit asking what people expected from the ranger. Every single reply wanted different things. There was absolutely no consistency at all.

Some wanted no magic, and to be a wilderness fighter.
Some wanted a specialist beast class.
Some wanted to a duel wield specialist.
Some wanted a nature themed half caster.
Many said it should be made a fighter and rogue subclass instead.

Yeah, but rangers get a pass because of the cultural impact of the name of the class.

 

[FrogReaver]

It lacks any of the signature class abilities which made arcane gishes fun in other editions and pathfinder. Those classes were based around applying magical effects via weapon attacks. Apart from two cantrips, EK and Bladesinger can't do that. In prior editions and pathfinder, there were dozens of effects that could be inflicted.

Eldritch Knight would be fine if it wasn't tied to the wizard list, and instead had its own spell list which included the weapon attack spells like searing smite and ensnaring strike.

It's like removing a barbarians rage, or a paladins smite. Sure you could make a fighter subclass with the same theme. But without those core abilities, it will never feel like playing a barbarian or paladin.

Paladins felt like Paladins long before they had the smite ability.

So i don’t think it’s really about the lack of a specific ability type. I think it’s about the lack of a cohesive whole at a low enough level. Ignoring balance (if EKs could start out attacking and using a cantrip on their turn they would feel a lot more like a Gish).

so IMO the key to fish design in 5e is to focus on the first 3 levels (and really only 2 of those levels grant the class it’s class defining abilities as the other level is for subclass abilities).

I propose the Gish should get a magical style ability. This ability allows him to burn a resource and get a slew of packaged magical effects he can perform at will for a minute. As he levels these magical effects increase in power and he gains more different styles he can enter.

 

[Laurefindel]

Arcane vs. Divine isn't really a rules distinction in modern D&D: magic is magic, fluff us a Class/Subclass level distinction. It was asked earlier, but what is the literary/cinematic archetype here?

The ranger has a forester/summoner theme, slightly ranged-oriented
Paladin has a leader/healer theme, more melee-oriented
Gish (let's call it that for the sake of this discussion) could have an elemental/conjurer/evoker theme, melee-weapon and ranged-spells oriented.

Just as some ranger and paladin subclasses focus or depart from certain elements of their basic archetype, so could the gish with an arcane archer subclass, a light-armored bladesigner, a defence-heavy abjurant warrior of sort, a mobility teleporting skirmisher, an offensive elemental strike subclass, etc.

I'm not saying that's what should have happened, only that it could have happened that way with an arcane half-caster built on the same frame as a the paladin with enough variety to each give their own role, niche, and function in and out of combat, just like the ranger and the paladin differ from one another despite also being built on the same frame.

Personnally, I'm fine with refluffing the paladin saying "screw this honor-code, righteous, holy warrior stuff, I'm a warrior-wizard and don't want anything to do with religion!", or refluffing the artificer saying "screw this science-technology gadget concept, I'm a savage warrior with an ancient runic tradition", but I know not everyone see classes as grab-bag sets of abilities with a suggested theme.

[edit] and I would be ok with an even fighter/wizard split if it weren't for waiting until level 5 to get a subclass, level 7 to get an ASI, and level 9 to get extra attack. Many multiclass concepts work very well at level 10+, but it's level 1-7 that interest me most. For that, the paladin and ranger frame fills the gap nicely.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

If we're trying to find an identity for the gish, wouldn't a good first step be to identify a number of characters from movie, tv, books and other fiction that embody the target concept? Do we have such a list?

Interestingly, it seems that despite being a common trope, they're often not named.

There is of course the 'main characters' of a series who will be like a max level fighter and wizard all in one (Rand al'Thor, Wheel of Time). But that's not not conductive to balance. Lirael (Old Kingdom book series) is a very clear example of a swordmage. Wearing medium armour and casting runes through her blade to fight monsters and demons. The Toa from Bionicle use weapons and cast magic. The Elder Scrolls also has unnamed battlemages and spellswords who tend to die in droves. WoW shamans use elemental magic and channel it through their weapon strikes. WoW Death Knights could also be more necromancy based swordmages.

 

[Vaalingrade]

It's the Jedi. We're trying to make Jedi.

Combat enhancing magic plus a melee fighting style that has cool effects.

Mind control optional.

 

[FrogReaver]

It's the Jedi. We're trying to make Jedi.

Combat enhancing magic plus a melee fighting style that has cool effects.

Mind control optional.

Jedi seem a bit more Paladin like to me. They follow a code. They have faith in ‘the force’.

 

[Flamestrike]

This is literally the most Gish friendly edition of all the editions.

Between Bladelocks, Sorcaladins, Bladesingers, Eldritch Knights, Swords/ Valor Bards, your only choice is what flavor of Gish you want.

 

[TwoSix]

Jedi seem a bit more Paladin like to me. They follow a code. They have faith in ‘the force’.

In terms of thematics, sure, but not in terms of abilities. If my character was described as wearing no or light armor, knocking aside arrows with their sword, pushing enemies with telekinesis, and jumping 20 feet in the air, I don't think anyone would think "oh, must be a paladin subclass".

 

[Thunder Brother]

This is literally the most Gish friendly edition of all the editions.

Between Bladelocks, Sorcaladins, Bladesingers, Eldritch Knights, Swords/ Valor Bards, your only choice is what flavor of Gish you want.

Very true, but the primary issue is that people want a dedicated arcane half-caster (that's not an artificer), instead of having it spread across various subclasses.

Similar to how the inclusion of a Psion class remains a major point of debate. For many, subclasses aren't enough.