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D&D General My Problem(s) With Halflings, and How To Create Engaging/Interesting Fantasy Races

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Chaosmancer

Legend
Dragonborn kinda beat me. I suppose people think they're cool, mechanically they suck.

That's why they have gotten rewrites.

By the time the newest UA material is published, I think I will have seen in actual books... six rewrites for dragonborn (2 from Mercer, 1 from Colville, and then 3 here)

I think this speaks to the strong desire to have them in the game. Their mechanical weakness is seen as a problem that needs addressing.
 

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I am often dumb-founded how I can mention Eberron in literally dozens of posts, and people still think I'm overlooking it. The PGB halfling =/= Talenta Plains halfings. We know this right? We know the PHB doesn't mention ancestor worship or the important of caring for your dinosaur mount. So, in talking about the PHB halfling, I shouldn't even need to look at Eberron.

BUT I DID!

And I acknowledge, Eberron, a setting known for rewriting basically everything and some very good worldbuilding, did something interesting with some of their halflings. You also mention Golarion... which is a Pathfinder setting? I'm not really sure what Pathfinder has done with halflings, never played, never really considered it. I know Golarion has some interesting art and lore, but I also don't see what they really have to do with DnD, except to show that a literal DnD clone kept DnD races like halflings.

But, all in all, whether it is Golarion or something from the 1970's or some third-party company like Ghostfire Gaming... how does that excuse the PHB? Like, do we give Ford props for Tesla making electric cars? If I was able to go and find a dozen DnD clones that did halflings better... wouldn't that be a sign that DnD dropped the ball on halflings and should try and do better in the future? Like, your point that I should look anywhere except the PHB to find really good takes on halflings, really makes it seem like the PHB halflings aren't great.

And instead of people saying that I'm wrong, and that they are different enough, and giving examples of how they are different enough... So far I'm just seeing a lot of silence. Which either means no one wants to have an actual discussion or that they don't have anything to disagree with me other than saying I'm wrong because I hate halflings.
If we focus just on the PHB then every race has roughly the equal amount of pretty generic and not particularly thrilling fluff. That's it. Nothing makes halfling in any meaningful way better or worse than the others there.

And you cant play with just the PHB fluff. There is no setting there. You either need to get an official setting or make your own. Now if your point is that Forgotten Realms has not enough fluff for halflings, then sure, that might be supportable. But so what, it's not particularly controversial that FR is pretty meh. And it's just one setting among several you could play in.
 
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Faolyn

(she/her)
See, I think the sticking point is "reasonably popular". To me, they just aren't. They aren't played that much (and I suspect that the amount is shrinking by percentage daily) and never have been. They don't appear in adventures and barely appear in setting guides. Take a guess how many times the word halfling appears in the 5e DMG?
Dragonborn are mentioned twice, and they're supposedly a lot more popular than halflings are.

The number of times they're mentioned in the DMG or a published adventure isn't indicative of how popular they are as PCs--just that they're not often used as NPCs.

Also, you don't know that they're not played that much. They're not common on D&D Beyond, which many, even most, players don't use.

Folks keep talking about how we dislike halflings. I certainly don't. What's to dislike? Something would have to actually appear anywhere in the game to engender some sort of feeling.
But instead of shrugging and moving on, you are certainly spilling a lot of electrons in talking about how they should be removed from the PH. And it's not like the presence of halflings is actually hurting anyone, nor is there any reason to believe that their presence is keeping other races out for a future edition. I could understand you complaining about halflings if they were actually causing some sort of legitimate problem, but they're not.

I would say that both Dragonborn and Tielfings have certainly "earned" their inclusion. They are two of the most commonly played races in the game according to the information we have.
I looked up what I could find about dragonborn lore and... much of it makes them very much like scaly dwarfs: honorable, clan-based, crafters with a preference for metal and jewels, traditionally more martial than magical. The primary difference is that they're also highly emotional and don't seem to have any particular love of ale, beards, or axes. They're interesting as a substitute for dwarfs, but it also seems like a lot of people don't like them because their traits are weak.

It's half-orc, gnome and halfling that have been included mostly for nostalgia reasons and nothing else. If you play a halfling in a WotC game - presuming the DM is using a WotC adventure - odds are you will be the only halfling in that entire campaign.
You've already said you have nothing to back this up, so you should probably stop making this claim.

Also, lots of people don't use published adventures, or make radical changes to fit them into their own world rather than whatever world (Realms) they're set it.

There will be no halfling NPC's, no halfling references, nothing. You might as well be playing a goblin or a tabaxi for all the connection your lineage choice will have to the adventure you are playing.
And? Is it common for people to play adventures using only the races mentioned in the published adventure? The Icewind Dale game I'm in has a leonin, a tabaxi, a firbolg, a gnome, a changeling, and a gith (can't remember if he's a 'yanki or 'zerai). I have a feeling that party compilations like this are just as common, or maybe even more so, than parties where everyone has some intrinsic connection to the area.

Also, I own two adventures: CoS and ToA. In both of them, the PCs are supposed to be whisked away from their native land and dropped into the adventure, meaning that having a native PC with any sort of connection to the area is not considered to be an option for those adventures.

And finally, it's been said, frequently, that many halflings live among humans, so if there's a human population in the area, there will be halflings. Maybe they're not directly mentioned by the adventure, but they're there in the background.
 


Chaosmancer

Legend
Irrelevant. No one reads that shtuff anyway.

So what? As pointed out, it's not like the PHB has a fixed race-count, or that subraces are a good rule/likely to make it into another edition in any case.

You are wrong. I read it. My friend and fellow DM reads it. Most of the people in my online group read it.

So, people do read that stuff. It is not irrelevant.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
It is setting specific - it belongs in setting books. Notice lineages have much shorter fluff text. That's the way forwards.

Really?

The only published examples of Lineages are in Ravenloft. Each one of them has about a full page of "fluff text". If we cut out the massive excerpts and stop at "Names" because lineages are specifically tied to other races, so they would just use those names, we see that Half-Elves are... about half a page. Half orcs are about a page. Tieflings half a page. Dragonborn about half a page. Gnomes... a little over a page. Halflings about a page. Dwarves about a page

So, no. Looking it over and comparing like to like, Lineages do not in fact have much shorter fluff text. In terms of raw page count including mechanics, they had the standard 2 pages that most races got.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
If we focus just on the PHB then every race has roughly the equal amount of pretty generic and not particularly thrilling fluff. That's it. Nothing makes halfling in any meaningful way better or worse than the other there.

And you cant play with just the PHB fluff. There is no setting there. You either need to get an official setting or make your own. Now if your point is that Forgotten Realms has not enough fluff for halflings, then sure, that might be supportable. But so what, it's not particularly controversial that FR is pretty meh. And it's just one setting among several you could play in.

I've actually argued quite a few times that the treatment of some of the other races in the PHB is far from as bland as they have treated halflings. If you have some proof to dispute that claim, I'd love to see it.

If you are going to tell me that I just hate halflings and that's why I'm wrong, and you aren't going to bother giving me any evidence because I'd see it if I wasn't so biased... then don't bother to respond.
 

Regarding a core four,

I feel the lineages should be:

• Human
• Elf
• Dwarf
• Giant

The Giant would start off as Medium or Large (perhaps depending on a Constitution prereq). If the player wants, possibly, Huge can be available at a high tier, and Gargantuan at epic tier.
Goliaths are already giant-kin, so that works. Hey, maybe to satisfy everybody we can include halflings as a subrace of giants (the really, really, small ones…)! 😀
 

I've actually argued quite a few times that the treatment of some of the other races in the PHB is far from as bland as they have treated halflings. If you have some proof to dispute that claim, I'd love to see it.

If you are going to tell me that I just hate halflings and that's why I'm wrong, and you aren't going to bother giving me any evidence because I'd see it if I wasn't so biased... then don't bother to respond.
Well, I still do respond. As they say: that's just like your opinion, man. That is what this argument is about. It is about your arrogance of thinking that your personal preference is an objective fact. I don't need proof to dispute your personal preference as there are no facts to be disputed.
 

Oofta

Legend
I've actually argued quite a few times that the treatment of some of the other races in the PHB is far from as bland as they have treated halflings. If you have some proof to dispute that claim, I'd love to see it.

If you are going to tell me that I just hate halflings and that's why I'm wrong, and you aren't going to bother giving me any evidence because I'd see it if I wasn't so biased... then don't bother to respond.
Will you ever admit that this is just your opinion, and one not universally shared though? Because that's what this all comes back to. A lot of people are perfectly fine with halfling lore and abilities. Heck, most people I know pretty much ignore all the lore and fluff. I don't find any of the lore for any of the races in the PHB particularly interesting. I find the animal based ones even worse. A tabaxi is ... wait for it ... an anthropomorphic cat!

On the other hand I think any interesting lore and culture has to be at a campaign setting level. Which of course you will say is not relevant because heaven forefend anyone discuss how the races are actually used in play instead of that whitespace in your head.
 

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