D&D General My Problem(s) With Halflings, and How To Create Engaging/Interesting Fantasy Races

[Faolyn]

There is a separate issue as well with pointing to settings like Eberron or Dark Sun.

These settings are really not very popular overall. At least, according to WotC and others when they talk about this sort of thing. You've got hombrewers, you've got people who use the Forgotten Realms, and then, over there in the corner, you have everyone else. Sure, I'm sure that people have heard of Eberron. But the number of actual players? Very small. There's a reason that the Adventurers League stuff is all set in Forgotten Realms and, outside a couple of exceptions like Ravenloft, all the WOtC AP's have been baselined into FR. It's because we can at least sort of assume that D&D players will be familiar with FR stuff.

So basically:

Forgotten Realms have sucky halflings. For whatever reason, WotC has decided to focus on the Realms. Therefore, all halflings must be assumed to be similar to Realms halflings, and no halflings in other settings should be used as an example of good halflings, because... WotC has pushed a setting with sucky halflings.

It's a bit of a No True Scotsmen thing: trying to prove that halflings suck by saying that the settings where they are cool don't count for some arbitrary reason.

So, pointing to something like Eberron, which doesn't advertise the fact that it has halflings - that's certainly not the main draw of the setting- as a potential solution for those who want more halfling material isn't really fair. How would anyone even begin to think that, yeah, if I want an interesting take on halflings, I should pick up Eberron?

I generally assume that people hear about settings through word of mouth, or through seeing that they exist and then asking other people about them, or looking through the associated wiki or subreddit. "Dino-riding halflings" is one of the things that always gets mentioned when Eberron is asked about. Kind of like "weirdly British hippos with guns and bombs" always gets mentioned when Spelljammer is asked about. "Dragonmarked houses" also gets mentioned a lot when Eberron is brought up, and from there, the fact that halflings have two of them.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Not sure what a "CR" folks are. Sorry, too many acronyms. Critical Role? Do you seriously think that Wildemount is even in the same zip code as Forgotten Realms?

Well, let's see. Several popular video games are set in Forgotten Realms - including several right now. There is additionally, a small mountain of Forgotten Realms novels out there in the wild, many of which top best seller lists. I mean, good grief, I've seen Salvatore translations in my small town library here in Japan. So, it's not too much of a stretch to think that there's a fair overlap on the Venn diagram of those who start playing D&D and those who have a passing familiarity with the Forgotten Realms.

I think that the reason that AL stuff is set in FR is because the AP's are set in FR. It all ties together in one very large marketing package.

What I'm getting at, and this is only hypothesis, is that that most of the current FR content is for people who already play D&D.

If you're coming to the hobby fresh, is it really likely that you've read a bunch of Salvatore?

 

[Faolyn]

Why are Dwarves and Duergar at war?

According to MTF, the duergar were lured via psychic means (basically, instilling gold madness into them) and called deep into the Underdark by the mind flayers, who then tortured the duegar and modified them against their will. This whole process took generations. When the duegar escaped, thanks to Laduguer, who was still a mortal at the time, and went back to their homeland, they discovered that other dwarfs had realized they had vanished. And that the other dwarfs had decided the reason for them vanishing was that the proto-duergar were lazy, corrupt heathens, since they abandoned their forges and temples to Moradin. Laduguer then declared war on Moradin for abandoning them and for generally being a jerk, and the duegar went back underground.

Personally, I think this is a fine story... if you realize that dwarfs aren't actually all lawful good. Possibly Chaosmancer dislikes it because it's very victim-blaming, but I think that makes it realistic. It gives the duergar an actual reason for disliking other dwarfs, and shows that dwarfs are often judgmental jerks.

 

[pemerton]

According to MTF, the duergar were lured via psychic means (basically, instilling gold madness into them) and called deep into the Underdark by the mind flayers, who then tortured the duegar and modified them against their will. This whole process took generations. When the duegar escaped, thanks to Laduguer, who was still a mortal at the time, and went back to their homeland, they discovered that other dwarfs had realized they had vanished. And that the other dwarfs had decided the reason for them vanishing was that the proto-duergar were lazy, corrupt heathens, since they abandoned their forges and temples to Moradin. Laduguer then declared war on Moradin for abandoning them and for generally being a jerk, and the duegar went back underground.

Personally, I think this is a fine story... if you realize that dwarfs aren't actually all lawful good. Possibly Chaosmancer dislikes it because it's very victim-blaming, but I think that makes it realistic. It gives the duergar an actual reason for disliking other dwarfs, and shows that dwarfs are often judgmental jerks.

According to page 13 of the Basic PDF,

Most dwarves are lawful, believing firmly in the benefits of a well-ordered society. They tend toward good as well, with a strong sense of fair play and a belief that everyone deserves to share in the benefits of a just order.​

I imagine that @Chaosmancer thinks there's a contradiction between that, and the description of the history of Dwarves and Duergar. And I can see why!

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I'll start by saying I didn't have the time to read all 100+ pages, but I'd say its important to define what is "good lore" for an ancestry... Do they need to have extensive history and prolific (past or present) nations or kingdoms? One thing I've always liked about the vanilla halflig is the lack of all that. Just a peacefull people who is happy to live their calm lives, with some adventures that get out of that space.

Yep.

There is a separate issue as well with pointing to settings like Eberron or Dark Sun.

These settings are really not very popular overall. At least, according to WotC and others when they talk about this sort of thing. You've got hombrewers, you've got people who use the Forgotten Realms, and then, over there in the corner, you have everyone else. Sure, I'm sure that people have heard of Eberron. But the number of actual players? Very small. There's a reason that the Adventurers League stuff is all set in Forgotten Realms and, outside a couple of exceptions like Ravenloft, all the WOtC AP's have been baselined into FR. It's because we can at least sort of assume that D&D players will be familiar with FR stuff.

I mean, Dark Sun hasn't made an appearance in published material in ten years. And even then, that was for 4e and had 4e cooties all over it. Before that? Most current D&D players weren't even born when Dark Sun was first released. Never minding some of the even more esoteric settings like Birthright or things like that.

So, pointing to something like Eberron, which doesn't advertise the fact that it has halflings - that's certainly not the main draw of the setting- as a potential solution for those who want more halfling material isn't really fair. How would anyone even begin to think that, yeah, if I want an interesting take on halflings, I should pick up Eberron?

That is reeeally old information, before D&D 5e became the best selling D&D ever. Eberron sold well enough with Wayfinder’s Guide that they started doing setting books again. It sold well enough with Rising that they put a ghost train in the Ravenloft book and had Wizkids put out a line of minis for Eberron.

Not sure what a "CR" folks are. Sorry, too many acronyms. Critical Role? Do you seriously think that Wildemount is even in the same zip code as Forgotten Realms?

Well, let's see. Several popular video games are set in Forgotten Realms - including several right now. There is additionally, a small mountain of Forgotten Realms novels out there in the wild, many of which top best seller lists. I mean, good grief, I've seen Salvatore translations in my small town library here in Japan. So, it's not too much of a stretch to think that there's a fair overlap on the Venn diagram of those who start playing D&D and those who have a passing familiarity with the Forgotten Realms.

I think that the reason that AL stuff is set in FR is because the AP's are set in FR. It all ties together in one very large marketing package.

The fact that you think Critical Role is not in the “same zip code” as FR is…just laughable.

 

[Minigiant]

So basically:

Forgotten Realms have sucky halflings. For whatever reason, WotC has decided to focus on the Realms. Therefore, all halflings must be assumed to be similar to Realms halflings, and no halflings in other settings should be used as an example of good halflings, because... WotC has pushed a setting with sucky halflings.

It's a bit of a No True Scotsmen thing: trying to prove that halflings suck by saying that the settings where they are cool don't count for some arbitrary reason.

FR is trash but WOTC promotes it 10 times harder than any other setting.

The fact that it's year 5 and WOTC is just now creating new settings for D&D is just weird.

 

[Gammadoodler]

The fact that you think Critical Role is not in the “same zip code” as FR is…just laughable.

I hadn't looked up the numbers so I didn't even realize how not close it is. Based on all internet searches for sales figures of bits of identifiable lore.

Salvatore books sold worldwide approximately 30 million over his entire catalog of 50 or so titles.

"Insane" sales figures for opening week of BG3 early access, over 1M units sold.

Meanwhile CR YouTube looks like it shows over 1M views (ranging as high as 16 million) for almost every episode of both campaigns (over 250 3-7 hour long) episodes. This likely includes some duplicate and/or partial views but it doesn't include Twitch viewership or podcast listening.

 

[Hussar]

The cover features a halfling

Well damn, so it does. Good to see.

Tells you how much I pay attention to Eberron though.

 

[Hussar]

Not my cover. I think the base cover does, but not sure how many people know the small guy on a dinosaur is a halfling

I think he means this one:

Thing is, how would I know that this is a halfling? It certainly doesn't look like a 5e halfling.

 

[Hussar]

I hadn't looked up the numbers so I didn't even realize how not close it is. Based on all internet searches for sales figures of bits of identifiable lore.

Salvatore books sold worldwide approximately 30 million over his entire catalog of 50 or so titles.

"Insane" sales figures for opening week of BG3 early access, over 1M units sold.

Meanwhile CR YouTube looks like it shows over 1M views (ranging as high as 16 million) for almost every episode of both campaigns (over 250 3-7 hour long) episodes. This likely includes some duplicate and/or partial views but it doesn't include Twitch viewership or podcast listening.

Sorry, I'm not sure what conclusion you're drawing here. Are you sayin that CR is as widely known as Forgotten Realms?