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D&D 5E Why Don't We Simplify 5e?

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
Because that's a subjective evaluation. Any claim that Troika or other systems are better are by your evaluation, not necessarily everyone else's.
Yes, but I am not a unique snowflake (and yes, Troika! is not for everyone), meaning my opinion is not unique.. They basically said "this doesn't exist, except for you". It's not just me. Furthermore, the notion that D&D 5e is the best for the type of play describe is ALSO a subjective evaluation.

And if you want objective... statistically speaking, the odds of any one system being the best at X are preeety low, because there are so many systems.
 

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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Side Question: I see several people mention getting rid of gridded combat for simplicity. For myself, have miniatures and grids make it easier for the game to flow. It gives a clear cut visual that seems to cut down on questions. Does gridded combat make it more complicated for some people?

It depends on what you mean by "get rid of gridded combat".

If you just get rid of the grid, but change no rules, yes, more questions come up. In order for it to simplify, you need to change most of how you deal with movement, positioning, range, area of effects, and so on.
 

Dausuul

Legend
This leads to other questions: do our posters crave complexity? Are simplicity-seekers less likely to be posting at ENWorld? Where's the desire for elegance?
Elegance is about making a system no more complicated than necessary.

I used to be all about elegance in RPG design. I've come to realize that it is monstrously overrated. It leads to simplifications that are too clever by half, and vital distinctions being papered over by too much abstraction. It isn't that one should never seek elegance, but it is very much a "nice to have," a pleasing but nonessential attribute.

Mounted Combat: mounting and dismounting cost 5 feet of movement. While mounted, your speed becomes that of your mount, and you can choose to make Attack actions as yourself or as your mount.
This is the sort of solution 4E tended to adopt: Take the "standard use case," boil it down to the simplest possible implementation, and just ignore all corner cases that arise out of it.

5E quite deliberately moved away from this approach, accepting a bit more complexity to better align mechanics with fiction. For example, this neat simple solution runs into problems as soon as you have a mount that can think and act on its own--which is not at all unusual in D&D. If you jump on the back of a dragon, does it lose all free will and become a passive vehicle as long as you can claim to be "mounted?" If not, what's the dividing line between a "mount" and a "creature whose back you happen to be on?" Follow this logic and you end up with the "controlled versus independent" distinction.

And then there's the question of multiple riders. Suppose you and I both mount the same horse? On your turn, you move 60 feet (the horse's speed). On my turn, I move another 60 feet. Having two riders makes the horse twice as fast. Crowd four halflings on the horse's back and it can go like a Formula 1 racer. Obviously, this makes no sense--only one of us can actually be the "rider" in control of the horse, everyone else is just a passenger. So now your clean simple rule has developed another nasty complication, where you have to distinguish "mount as the rider" from "mount as a passenger."

Next up, what about terrain hazards? If you gallop into caltrops, who takes damage, you or the horse? By your rule, it's you--you're the one moving. So there needs to be a clause about terrain hazards affecting the mount. What happens if you move into a space that you can fit into but your mount can't? Nothing in your rule as written would prevent this. So you have to add another clause that the rider's size changes to match the mount's, which has assorted side effects (e.g., grappling).

As the weirdnesses keep piling up, it quickly becomes simpler to reframe the whole thing in a way that matches the fiction: The mount is the one doing the moving. If independent, it acts on its own turn. If "controlled," it acts on the turn of whoever is controlling it.

And, just like that, you've arrived at 5E's mounted combat rules.
 
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Argyle King

Legend
Is there a relationship between being "complicated" and intuitiveness?

I've found that to be the case with some newer players, but I rarely see anyone else mention that issue. I'm curious if it's something unique or anecdotal to this area and how I may be approaching the game.

What I mean is that a lot of questions come up in regards to how a player intuits that a situation should play out sometimes seems at odds with how the game says something works.

"Why can't I attack the eye of the giant floating eyeball thing?"

"Grappling doesn't make it harder to..."

"If I only need to sleep for 4 hours, why is a rest 8 hours?"

Trying to parse the differences between natural attacks, unarmed strikes, melee attacks, and the attack action (That's natural language? )

...HP being binary: either dead or standing
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Elegance is about making a system no more complicated than necessary.

I used to be all about elegance in RPG design. I've come to realize that it is monstrously overrated. It leads to simplifications that are too clever by half, and vital distinctions being papered over by too much abstraction. It isn't that one should never seek elegance, but it is very much a "nice to have," a pleasing but nonessential attribute.

I think, if Elegance is about making a system no more complicated than necessary, your second paragraph is not about elegance, but about simplification. By your definition, stopping simplification before things are too clever by half, or papered over, is part of elegance.
 

Dausuul

Legend
I think, if Elegance is about making a system no more complicated than necessary, your second paragraph is not about elegance, but about simplification. By your definition, stopping simplification before things are too clever by half, or papered over, is part of elegance.
Yeah, I should really have picked one of those two paragraphs and deleted the other.
 

5eA could just have the six ability scores and no skills. Your lineage and class could give you advantage when doing certain narrative things, like Sneaking or Perceiving. Or just to ability checks in general!

Adding skill bonuses to a d20 roll was actually the thing my tables of 11-13 year olds had the least trouble with. Many needed me to calculate for them what their bonuses were the first couple times they rolled characters, but while it would technically be simpler to just use ability scores I don't think not having skills would have made the game more intuitive or more accessible for them after character creation. Meanwhile I do think it would make some of them struggle more to figure out what sort of things they can try or what their character is likely to be good at to not have a list of how good they are at various skills.
 

Adding skill bonuses to a d20 roll was actually the thing my tables of 11-13 year olds had the least trouble with. Many needed me to calculate for them what their bonuses were the first couple times they rolled characters, but while it would technically be simpler to just use ability scores I don't think not having skills would have made the game more intuitive or more accessible for them after character creation. Meanwhile I do think it would make some of them struggle more to figure out what sort of things they can try or what their character is likely to be good at to not have a list of how good they are at various skills.
I played 2e at that age, and I think 5e is simpler because of the unified mechanic. But I think a 13 year old should be able to pick up just about any rpg and figure it out, at least mechanically, if they are interested in the game. Probably the bigger difficulty for kids and pre teens is acting in a sociable manner (e.g. no pvp, not arguing over rules, etc).

For new players in general, leaning into archetype is probably more useful than a list of skills with bonuses ranging from 0 to +4 (or whatever). I think the 5e system does a good job at making that incidentally true by linking at least some skills to class (so the wizard is good at arcana, the bard is good at persuasion, etc).
 

mrpopstar

Sparkly Dude
If you make each class cookie-cutter and generic for the class as a whole, I think you can include more classes. IE you can just throw in land druid, bear-totem barbarian, lore bard, fiend warlock, dragon sorcerer...

12 classes isn't too much. 45 subclasses could well be, however.

This then ties back to not-quite-pregens: pre-pick spells and other variable features (except maybe Fighting Style), make other quickstart decisions, definitely cut non-humans (except for special cases: I might allow a wood elf ranger or tiefling warlock), pre-pick backgrounds. The player can pick their own name (with a list of suggestions)

For the second character they play (assuming they didn't die in the first session), they can dive into the PHB and go through the whole process. And/or after they get through the first tier they can re-make their character or make a new one, if they like.

EDIT: and there's several features that could be simplified without breaking things. Divine Sense could be always on an less precise, rage could just last until the end of combat, several spells could be a lot easier, things like that. But that's a bigger project.
I'm still of the opinion that the game would be a much simpler exercise for new recruits if subclasses were not assumed/required.
 

CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing (He/They)
I'm still of the opinion that the game would be a much simpler exercise for new recruits if subclasses were not assumed/required.
I suppose that for most classes, it's not--provided you are only playing 1st or 2nd level characters. But I agree: I too would like to see a version of the core classes that didn't need subclasses to feel complete.
 

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