D&D 5E Ability Score Increases (I've changed my mind.)

[Chaosmancer]

That was not my question. My question for you was - can they both exist in the same campaign? If the answer is yes, then there is absolutely no need to debate Max. He can have escapism that does not reflect reality.

I never said reflects reality. I said it references it. There is a difference.

I'm not saying every game has to adhere to reality, but the language of fantasy is the same language of reality. The ideas of fantasy can still be found in reality. You can't separate them. You can't say "tree" without referencing what a tree is. You can't have war, without referencing what war is.

And you can choose to draw that connection if you want. There is nothing wrong with that. In fact, it is often encouraged for deep storytelling. But, can you accept, for many, the suspension of disbelief is strong enough to never draw a connection? And even when shown, choose to ignore it? Or must they see things your way?

Of course you can choose to ignore it. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist though. Which is what he is saying, that somehow he can have a war in his game, and it in now way bears any similarities to or has any connection to the idea of war in reality.

 

[Maxperson]

... except you are saying the language is similar, which means the events are similar. Those are connections.

Not to any specific real world event.

Not the point. You are saying it doesn't make sense for a dex feat to be given to a race with no dex bonus. But we can give the Lucky feat to races that aren't known to be lucky, and that isn't nonsensical.

It's EXACTLY the point. I'm sayin that +2 dex gives reason for elves to have dex based abilities. Luck has no stat, so halflings don't need to have a high luck stat to warrant having that racial ability. With no stat, anyone can get the lucky feat and be an individual who is lucky. If luck were a stat, I would want halflings to have +2 at it to represent their luck. I'd also want a luck requirement of 13+ for other PCs to get the lucky feat.

It's all simple and works together.

So, why would it be nonsensical to give a race known for dexterity and grace feats to amplify that instead of a dex bonus? Again, you make a claim, but when I show something similar you want to rely on it not being identical to act like it isn't a critique of your claim.

Because of the stat which you inappropriately dismissed above. MY point is about stats informing abilities that relate to those stats. Your bad example doesn't somehow counter my point.

 

[Maxperson]

Except for being the same thing, the murder of a child by their caretaker. That's a connection, that's "something to do with it"

Not to the specific event it doesn't. At best you can claim an extremely tenuous connection to child murders by caretakers in general.

So there is a connection. There is a reference. You want to claim that child murder has nothing to do with child murder just because one is fake. But that isn't how language or ideas work.

There is no reference. A reference is TO something specific. It's not a general statement. In order to reference that specific murder, I have to call it out specifically like I did the Eiffel Tower in the other post.

So you never made the claim that I can literally quote you saying?

Correct. My quote doesn't say what you think it says. That's the problem. You can quote someone saying that they like bananas, but when you respond, "So you're saying bananas are your favorite fruit." you've changed things and showing that you don't understand what the person said. What I said and what you are "interpreting" are two different things.

Someone hacked your account to say this? Stole your identity?

No no. It just doesn't mean what you want to it mean. It means what I meant. Note the word "basically" in there. It means that it's not 100%. They are not in fact one race, as I said in my earlier response to you when I said that you "could still be an elf without the +2 dex, it would just be an incomplete elf." If it was 100%, I would have said, " If every race gets the same racial bonuses, they are one race with varied looks and some differing abilities." Do you understand the difference there?

 

[Bill Zebub]

Things that instead of being a bonus to the ability scores actually demonstrated a real difference between what they could do. Because anyone could have an 18, 20 or if you do caps 22 Dex, but only elves get access to these feats and abilities. Whatever they would end up being

Yes, I think this is key (and said something related to this up-thread).

+2 Dex says...not very much. It could be the luck of the dice. It could be a leveling up ASI.

Abilities unique to a race are (to me, anyway) vastly more interesting and fun. Especially if it's not just a passive bonus, but something you get to "do" every now and then.

 

[Maxperson]

Yes, I think this is key (and said something related to this up-thread).

+2 Dex says...not very much. It could be the luck of the dice. It could be a leveling up ASI.

Only on the individual level. Over an entire race it says a lot. It says that this entire race is on average more dexterous than that entire race over there that doesn't have a bonus. Having only abilities does not say that.

Abilities unique to a race are (to me, anyway) vastly more interesting and fun. Especially if it's not just a passive bonus, but something you get to "do" every now and then.

Agreed. Which is why I want them in addition to the bonus.

 

[LadyElect]

Only on the individual level. Over an entire race it says a lot. It says that this entire race is on average more dexterous than that entire race over there that doesn't have a bonus. Having only abilities does not say that.

Could you expound on why you don’t think abilities alone are sufficient?

For my own estimation, if a single race has multiple dexterity-based abilities but no other race has any then I think it’s fair to say they are innately more dextrous. Of course, limiting to one option in an example like that essentially ties the race and class together all the same, regardless of the ASI’s existence, but alas.

 

[Maxperson]

Could you expound on why you don’t think abilities alone are sufficient?

If a race known for it's dexterity and grace(elves) doesn't get a dex bonus, then it is just as dexterous as a race of turtles(tortles) which also don't get a dex bonus. Both entire races average the exact same dexterity number. If those two races are identically dexterous, then one race having dex based abilities that imply a high dexterity is absurdly out of place. There's nothing to justify those abilities.

For my own estimation, if a single race has multiple dexterity-based abilities but no other race has any then I think it’s fair to say they are innately more dextrous.

That it as a race has the same dexterity as a tortles as a race puts the lie to that, though. A more dexterous race would have a higher average dexterity.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Of course, limiting to one option in an example like that essentially ties the race and class together all the same, regardless of the ASI’s existence, but alas.

Not sure I understand that; could you elaborate?

 

[Argyle King]

I don't think it would require granularity. I know one of the last times we were having this discussion is was literally just more abilities. Like elves getting a reaction move if an enemy tried to attack them for a higher level feat.

Things that instead of being a bonus to the ability scores actually demonstrated a real difference between what they could do. Because anyone could have an 18, 20 or if you do caps 22 Dex, but only elves get access to these feats and abilities. Whatever they would end up being

Would you be supportive of something like 4th Edition's racial powers?

I think that's close to what you and some others have suggested. It's just not a "feat."

An example of something like that in 5th Edition would be the Dragonborn breath weapon. I think that ability could be designed better, but it's an example of a unique racial ability.

Keying racial abilities to different pillars of play could be a way to explore options.

Breath Weapon is (I would think) a combat pillar ability. Other races (like Elves) might have something ranger-y.

All of the abilities would be useful for any class, but in different situations. So, maybe the Dragonborn Fighter gets more damage output and options more geared toward combat, while the Elven Fighter gets abilities which give that character capabilities to contribute to the party in other ways.

In a way, that could allow a little bit of what I'd call "soft multiclassing" without needing to actually multiclass. I think maybe that's kinda the idea behind racial weapons (?) but it's just not implemented well.

A frail wizard likely doesn't benefit much from trying to use a longsword in melee, but being able to maneuver through the woods or breath weapon enemies who get too close are things which do.

 

[LadyElect]

Not sure I understand that; could you elaborate?

I just mean to say that if only 1 race had any dex beneficial abilities at all then it could still appear to be the ‘statistical’ pick for certain classes and offset the work of generalizing racial ASIs.