D&D 5E Ability Score Increases (I've changed my mind.)

[Scott Christian]

To these, my answer is why don't you play 3e or PF, the second edition is supposed to be quite good for people liking crunchiness.

I haven't played the second edition of PF yet except when they were playtesting at GenCon a few years ago. I do have the book though. It is interesting how they handled attribute bonuses.

 

[Lyxen]

I haven't played the second edition of PF yet except when they were playtesting at GenCon a few years ago. I do have the book though. It is interesting how they handled attribute bonuses.

From what I see, it's a good game if you like technical games, but 3e really was too much for me, I couldn't stand fights that took more than one evening or having to spend 3 hours just to create an NPC. Now I can run 3 interesting fights in one evening and still spend the majority of the time roleplaying, and I define my NPCs in a few minutes at most, D&D is fun again.

 

[FrogReaver]

Sure, that’s true. AND some people who would have chosen a race purely for the ASI will now choose their race for role playing/story/just-because-they like it reasons, as I said. Our two statements are not mutually exclusive.

And why “sorry”? I don’t understand what you are apologizing for. Or was it meant ironically?



Sure. When 5e came out all the people who wrote 4e (and 3e?) guides wrote new ones, even though there is so much less to optimize. I doubt that will ever stop.

The question is how many, of the millions of people playing 5e, actually use those guides? But since both of us will be conjecturing, it’s not really worth discussing the answer.



D&DBeyond data that controls for Tasha’s.

Then I want D&D Beyond data that controls for Tasha's as evidence for your position? Do you have that?

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Great post, but if you want to be a strong halfling in my game, you better find a belt of giant strength.

What is the maximum strength limit that you would apply to halflings? A Str 15 halfling is equivalent to a 6 year old child able to deadlift both parents. Thats definitely strong!
Would it be 12 Strength? That is stronger than the average person, but possibly not "strong".

The problem here is that all racial abilities fall into this category and not just racial ASIs. Which makes the question why have any predefined races at all?

I don't think that all that many people have an ideological issue with racial differences: They are happy to have elves being faster than dwarves, goliaths being more powerful and able to be generally better barbarians than halflings etc.

In the spectrum between "races are so distinct they are specific classes" and "everyone uses points-buy custom lineage" there are different places that different people draw the line for both thematic and optimisation reasons. Most people in this discussion seem to draw it either at the original 5e "racial ASIs, but not racial ability maximums or minimums" and Tasha's "no racial ASIs, but races are still mechanically distinct and more suited for some things than others."

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Given I've already mentioned that I don't see the point in floating ASIs, and personally think that simply extending the point-buy would be a better option:

Would 35 points to spend, and you can buy a score of 16 for 12 points seem reasonable?
Does there need to be an option for buying a 17 do you think?

 

[Scribe]

What is the maximum strength limit that you would apply to halflings? A Str 15 halfling is equivalent to a 6 year old child able to deadlift both parents. Thats definitely strong!
Would it be 12 Strength? That is stronger than the average person, but possibly not "strong".

An interesting question to me. It's I suppose a question of if it should even be possible, at all, even at level 20, to be 'strong'.

In my heart of hearts, just considering (my sister has a 7 year old) if it should be possible, and put that way, it is absolutely absurd...so yeah Str based Halflings just make zero sense to me. It's a meme.

What I feel today, after all this discussion, is that I just would cap at 18 (disregarding potions or items) with a -2, heck maybe even a -4 at creation. That probably makes a Str class impossible though, instead of just 'not optimal'.

-2 with cap of 18? Seems more like it.

 

[Yaarel]

Given I've already mentioned that I don't see the point in floating ASIs, and personally think that simply extending the point-buy would be a better option:

What would you do with irregular score races like mountain dwarf, who relatively lose half of a feat in the process of switching to pointbuy only?

Would 35 points to spend, and you can buy a score of 16 for 12 points seem reasonable?
Does there need to be an option for buying a 17 do you think?

For me, the actual numbers dont matter. If the standard for everyone is beween 10 and 14, then that is the standard. It is probably fair to say that D&D tradition expects a 16, and players would be disappointed with a high score of 13.

Regardless of the specific costs, I view something like following final results reasonable.

+3, +1, +0, +0, +0, +0
+2, +2, +1, +0, +0, +0
+2, +1, +1, +1, +1, +1



Because of 5e bounded accuracy, I prefer the final numbers to be as tolerably low as possible.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Then I want D&D Beyond data that controls for Tasha's as evidence for your position? Do you have that?

Am I mis-reading this, or have your posts carried a hostile, confrontational tone?

No, I don't have Tasha's data. This is exactly why a few posts ago I said we each have our own beliefs about what people will do, but that we're unlikely to convince each other. Maybe it wasn't clear that I was saying that.

 

[Maxperson]

Actually, it is.

D&D tropes are often ethnocentric.

I am Norwegian, not English.

When I play an elf, I want the Norse concept of an elf, not the Tolkien one.

When I play a dwarf, I want to play the Norse concept of a dwarf, not the Tolkien one.

Neither elves nor dwarves are the Tolkien versions. Gygax has said that straight out.

The Norse elf is especially magical, and not especially dextrous. They fight with magic, not with bows.

I am uncomfortable being coerced to play a Tolkien elf. Because it misrepresents my ethnic heritage.

Well, you're being coerced into a D&D elf, not a Tolkien elf. Have you thought about creating Norse elves and dwarves for your game? I think that would be really cool. If you do, I'd love to see what you come up with?

 

[Maxperson]

Oh, I have no doubt about you caring about it!

But the truth is that us Nordics are among the most privileged people in the world, so acting like you are oppressed because an American game writer writes the elves in a way you don't like comes across as a tad insensitive.

They aren't even Tolkien elves. D&D elves have about as much in common with Tolkien elves as they do with D&D halflings.