D&D 5E Ability Score Increases (I've changed my mind.)

[MGibster]

Well, you're being coerced into a D&D elf, not a Tolkien elf. Have you thought about creating Norse elves and dwarves for your game? I think that would be really cool. If you do, I'd love to see what you come up with?

My elves live in a tree and bake cookies and crackers.

 

[Maxperson]

I didn't pick up any sense of persecution or oppression in what they were saying. Just that they would rather play elves and dwarves that fit their cultural heritage, instead of an English author's take on it.

I did. Being uncomfortable with, and coerced into play D&D elves comes across as being oppressed. If he had simply said, "Hey. I don't like D&D elves and would much rather play the Norse version, because I'm Norse.", that would have been stating a preference for their cultural heritage.

 

[Maxperson]

My elves live in a tree and bake cookies and crackers.

You coerce them into baking?!

I'm telling the Keebler legal team.

 

[Bill Zebub]

My elves live in a tree and bake cookies and crackers.

I seem to remember a parody adventure from the mid-80’s based on this premise.

 

[Maxperson]

I seem to remember a parody adventure from the mid-80’s based on this premise.

I wouldn't doubt it. There were lots of fun adventures and parodies during that time.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

What would you do with irregular score races like mountain dwarf, who relatively lose half of a feat in the process of switching to pointbuy only?

As I said before, they have that extra ability point to begin with to compensate for their best racial trait not benefitting the same classes than their strength bonus does. And as this is not the case if the ASIs are not fixed, the compensation doesn't need to exist either. Having it without fixed ASIs actually makes them (slightly) overpowered.

 

[Older Beholder]

-

 

[Chaosmancer]

No, it's not, because as a balancing factor for having more racial ASIs, the humans lack many other powers, so in effect almost no-one plays a non-variant human. As for variant humans with the feat, on the other hand, they are part of many builds because of the feat, which again goes to prove that it IS a power option.

The feat is a power option, but not the 16 ASI. And if a Tielfing isn't powergaming by playing a warlock or a bard with 16 Charisma, how are they power gaming by playing a Monk with a 16 Dexterity? How is one okay, but the other not? Just because is isn't standard?

Actually, it does, 20 years experience on this has shown it in our groups. Although, by far, the best effect has been obtained by putting the reins of the game back into the DM's hands, which has also stopped the bullies from rules-lawyering. In both these respects, 5e is an absolute, total win.

Maybe it worked for you. For me, it didn't. I had to sit down the player and tell him that no, I didn't care who it was or how stupid he thought her plan was, berating another player for a week over her RP decision to heal the townsfolk first was unacceptable.

The entire group was fairly optimized. Homebrewed to be more powerful. He was the only one I had an issue with, and it wasn't because he was a allowed a choice of ASIs, it was because he was an ass and no one had sat him down and told him that other people get to play their own characters.

I play with people who actually do powergame, who do take it to the ends of the system seeking the most power. And most of them don't pull this sort of BS. You are conflating a symptom with the disease.

The devs disagree about what makes a good player: "To play D&D, and to play it well, you don’t need to read all the rules, memorize every detail of the game, or master the fine art of rolling funny looking dice. None of those things have any bearing on what’s best about the game."

Wow, you really are hurt by this. Yeah, no, the devs and me don't disagree on what makes a good player. A good player is one who sits down to have fun. A bad player sits down and takes away other people's fun.

Telling a good player that they can't optimize because then they might scream another player down at the table isn't solving anything. They wouldn't do that anyways. And a player who is going to do that, can still find ways to optimize even without Tashas. Play a wood elf cleric with a 16 wisdom and 16 dexterity. And then start going to town. And they might still yell at the other players to boot.

For me, a good player is a player willing to play WITH the other players and not AGAINST them in any way, shape, or form, and this includes not wanting to be stronger than the others for any reason whatsoever.

You know what I find funny about that? I'm not asking to be stronger than others. I'm asking to be equal. Wood Elf Cleric can get 16/16, why can't I play a Wood Elf Warlock who gets a 16 Charisma? I'm not going to be more powerful than if I picked a Tiefling instead, I might even be weaker to some optimizers.

And, again, if all we cared about was power, then we wouldn't even be asking in the first place, because the power already exists.

No one at our tables has ever been forced to play an optimised race, if there is even such a thing. Actually, we have very few humans at our table, even though we allow variant humans.

I spoke to harshly, but there are a lot of us who feel like there isn't really a lot of choice with Static Racial ASIs. We want to match the baseline of the party? We need to pick races that line up with our classes.

And it's people who deride other players for making a halfling wizard who find themselves uncomfortable at our tables, as this is bullying, contrary to the intent of the game, and certainly not the mark of a good player.

I agree. But you know what? Forcing a halfing wizard to be mechanically less effective doesn't stop the guy whose bullying the other player. In fact, in that guys mind, he might even be right, because there is an objective fact of the numbers involved.

So, by enforcing strict racial ASIs you aren't stopping anything. Your encouraging the mindset because they are right.

Actually they are, again, 20 years of experience on this and we have none of the trouble that 3e created for us. I agree that the problems are not completely solved, as there are still people coming with the "builds", but not having fixed stats forces them to think about their choices and actually do their own work (rather than parroting online guides), and keeps the discrepancies to a minimum, enforcing much better play and ambiance for every one.

Again, maybe it worked for you, but the actual problems you are describing aren't caused by point buy or floating ASIs. They just aren't.

 

[Chaosmancer]

SAC (and therefore official): "A Dungeon Master adjudicates the game and determines whether to use an official ruling in play. The DM always has the final say on rules questions."

So no, players are never given any "sole authority", and even official rulings are not mandatory.

This is why, by the way, it should not really matter whether floating ASIs are an option or not. The only real benefit is for beginning DMs who can therefore more easily resist bullying players who insist that they are entitled to whatever they want in terms of character creation (and I've seen many of these coming to forums and whining about their "Bad DMs" - all the while whining as well about not finding enough DMs to run games for them).

A player not wanting to randomize there stats is a not a problem player. They are someone who doesn't like random stats that can end up ruining their character.

I've seen bully DMs try and force people to roll, because they think it is "more fair" and I am a full advocate of telling those DMs to back off. This isn't an optional rule, and if you need to pull the "I'm the final authority and so you will obey me" card, then I'm very fine saying bye and leaving, because I don't need to deal with your hang-ups.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Because people are calling for a lot more changes than just floating ability scores.

Only to address the people who are claiming that without their static scores their races are just an unidentifiable blob that has nothing to offer them.

We're trying to help that issue, by offering alternatives.