D&D 5E Ability Score Increases (I've changed my mind.)

[Bill Zebub]

I've done so, I disagree with your conclusion.

I wouldn’t put you in the category of “defending at all costs.” You seem willing to acknowledge the validity of opposing arguments, even if they don’t sway you.

 

[Helldritch]

And where am I at? I did say that floating ASI are fine at some tables and in some campaigns. I just do not want to see them as the default.

So far, no arguments have been rock hard in any directions. What you see as pro floating ASI, I see as an excellent rebuttal against them... As I said earlier, it's in the eye for the beholder and that beast is a tricky one. When in doubt, I tend to change nothing. As an option, floating ASI are perfectly fine. Not my cup of tea, but as long as they are optional...

 

[Bill Zebub]

Apologies to all. I did not mean that everybody with another opinion is just engaging in semantic gymnastics. I was venting frustration with a handful of posts and cast too wide a net.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I think the answer is simpler than that.

Racist trope: “Some ethnic groups are naturally more charismatic than others. It’s not how their community raises them; it’s genetic.”

Example in D&D: “All Tieflings, regardless of background, get +2 Charisma.”

Ergo, removing that rule removes one instance of a racist trope. (It’s not the reason I personally dislike fixed ASIs…I just want flexibility in character creation. But it’s there.)

Of course, at this point in the debate I don’t expect anybody who is determined to defend fixed ASIs at all costs to acknowledge this point. Better to engage in semantic contortionism than to concede any point, right?

Or that some groups are better runners, are more accustomed to darkness, are better at hiding or literally any difference at all. The logical conclusion of this is the elimination of the concept of fantasy races as anything except cosmetic. Perhaps that what's needed, but let's at least be logically consistent with this. If depicting groups of people having biological differences is problematic then it is so regardless of whether that difference is represented by an ASI or a trait, or indeed if it is just mere fluff.

 

[Scribe]

Or that some groups are better runners, are more accustomed to darkness, are better at hiding or literally any difference at all. The logical conclusion of this is elimination of the concept of fantasy races as anything except cosmetic. Perhaps that' what's needed, but let's at least be logically consistent with this. If depicting groups of people having biological differences is problematic then it is so regardless of whether that difference is represented by an ASI or a trait, or indeed if it is just mere fluff.

And so we again come full circle.

Either.

A: Fantasy is inherently flawed from a perspective of biologically distinct humanoids, and all must be rendered down to an acceptable similar potential.

Funny Hats.

Or.

B: It is understood that different Fantasy biological humanoids can be faster/stronger/hardier or have otherwise 'magical' properties inherent to their type.

That's really it. Either it's acceptable (B) or it's funny hats.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Or that some groups are better runners, are more accustomed to darkness, are better at hiding or literally any difference at all. The logical conclusion of this is the elimination of the concept of fantasy races as anything except cosmetic. Perhaps that what's needed, but let's at least be logically consistent with this. If depicting groups of people having biological differences is problematic then it is so regardless of whether that difference is represented by an ASI or a trait, or indeed if it is just mere fluff.

To be clear, I wasn't using the argument to justify changes to the game. I was merely demonstrating how removing the Charisma bonus from Tiefling is, in fact, a case of removing racist tropes from the game.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

And so we again come full circle.

Either.

A: Fantasy is inherently flawed from a perspective of biologically distinct humanoids, and all must be rendered down to an acceptable similar potential.

Funny Hats.

Or.

B: It is understood that different Fantasy biological humanoids can be faster/stronger/hardier or have otherwise 'magical' properties inherent to their type.

That's really it. Either it's acceptable (B) or it's funny hats.

Yep. That's it. Those are the options.

 

[Bill Zebub]

And so we again come full circle.

Either.

A: Fantasy is inherently flawed from a perspective of biologically distinct humanoids, and all must be rendered down to an acceptable similar potential.

Funny Hats.

Or.

B: It is understood that different Fantasy biological humanoids can be faster/stronger/hardier or have otherwise 'magical' properties inherent to their type.

That's really it. Either it's acceptable (B) or it's funny hats.

Yeah, and this is exactly why I not only am not basing my preferences on the racism argument, but don't think it should even be invoked in the discussion of ASIs. Because once you start down that road, as you say, the same argument can be made about racial abilities. And I do love my racial special abilities! Just not racial ASIs.

That said, I do think that mental (Int, Wis, Cha) racial ASIs are especially problematic. It's fine to say that larger races should be stronger, but once we get into smarter, better looking, more charming, etc. things get...messy.

 

[Scribe]

Yeah, and this is exactly why I not only am not basing my preferences on the racism argument, but don't think it should even be invoked in the discussion of ASIs. Because once you start down that road, as you say, the same argument can be made about racial abilities. And I do love my racial special abilities! Just not racial ASIs.

That said, I do think that mental (Int, Wis, Cha) racial ASIs are especially problematic. It's fine to say that larger races should be stronger, but once we get into smarter, better looking, more charming, etc. things get...messy.

It can be, or it can be explained away just like you (or someone did) last page with Tieflings + Cha.

Magical Property: Infernal Persuasion 'blah blah Tieflings have increased Charisma due to their fiendish heritage.'

This is a game of Fantasy, of Magic, of beings who are what they are because great Great grandfather hooked up with a devil. That is a construct of actual metaphysical evil....

So sure?

I could argue that Elf's due to their alien brains have faster neurology.

I could argue the wisdom of dwarves is a gift from their gods.

It's either all handwaved away, or every last trait can be twisted into something it isnt, and we just get funny hats.

That's up to each table, as of the current PHB.

 

[Helldritch]

Or that some groups are better runners, are more accustomed to darkness, are better at hiding or literally any difference at all. The logical conclusion of this is the elimination of the concept of fantasy races as anything except cosmetic. Perhaps that what's needed, but let's at least be logically consistent with this. If depicting groups of people having biological differences is problematic then it is so regardless of whether that difference is represented by an ASI or a trait, or indeed if it is just mere fluff.

On this I can't do anything but fully agree. Either we remove the concept of "fantasy race" entirely or we keep them as is. If it is truly a racist thing that truly has repercussions in the real world, then your solution would be best. If it is not, then floating racial ASI as fine as they are now; that is an optional rule.