D&D 4E Anyone playing 4e at the moment?

[dave2008]

That's...really hard for me to square with both my own experience and....just what 5e actually does. Like, how does 5e not just stretch the same mechanics that happened for 10 levels out to 20 levels (or whatever else)?

5e stops at lvl 20. It has no epic levels in my opinion. That is the point. It doesn't try to epic like 4e claims to be. What 5e does provide is something a bit different with epic boons and related post lvl 20 options. That is what I want in my epic, something different.

EDIT: I want to quickly note in case you missed it. My argument was 4e claimed "Epic is core, we go to level 30!" And it didn't deliver that. 5e doesn't make any epic claims. It does provide something in the DMG, but it makes no claim to be epic, which 4e did and didn't deliver IMO

I'd also be very curious what epic things you see 5e non-casters doing? Because "taking two actions" or "rerolling a save" a couple of times a day, or "turning one bad roll into a good roll" don't exactly strike me as "epic." (I can kinda-sorta-vaguely-ish see the "no one can get attack advantage against me" thing as epic, but it's very much on the ultra-low end.) As opposed to, y'know, literally stealing the color of a maiden's eyes or walking your way out of death. Which are things non-caster epic 4e characters can do.

I clearly have confused you (and likely myself). I don't think 5e does epic. That is my point. What it does provide is a framework for post 20 lvl play that feels more epic to me.

 

[dave2008]

poor implementation and basically a non-concept except being not the same.

And yet I like it better than what 4e provided (or didn't provide really). It is good to be different!

PS I also disagree with that characterization.

 

[Garthanos]

No, like punching for 80d6 damage 2/round, every round, or being able to run at mach 3.

4e had room for improvements on epic they need more grander scale effects like that swordmage example (but it was not as common as I would have liked) but they were much closer to honing in on it but 5e apparently said bah on presenting legendary or mythic characters larger than life nope the everyman in a long story.

 

[dave2008]

@Garthanos & @EzekielRaiden , I am heading to bed. Have a great night!

Also, please don't take my disregard for 4e's epic levels to mean I don't think it is a great game I do. I can be unhappy with a part of game (and that is not the only thing I dislike in 4e) and still love the game.

 

[Garthanos]

I'd also be very curious what epic things you see 5e non-casters doing? Because "taking two actions" or "rerolling a save" a couple of times a day, or "turning one bad roll into a good roll" don't exactly strike me as "epic." (I can kinda-sorta-vaguely-ish see the "no one can get attack advantage against me" thing as epic, but it's very much on the ultra-low end.)

Boons must have really impressed him.

As opposed to, y'know, literally stealing the color of a maiden's eyes or walking your way out of death. Which are things non-caster epic 4e characters can do

Yup and none of that is anywhere to be seen in 5e not even in those boons that will suddenly make the guy from gym feel awesomely epic as he performs the same maneuvers he could at level 3 either.

4e presents for me a natural progression into legendary and mythic range and begins with a hero 5e really feels like a stall out.(maybe not for casters)

Unless I missed something the 5e fighter very likely has nothing at 20 that he couldn't have at level 5.

 

[Garthanos]

Something else that made characters feel larger than life, which 5e abandoned from 4e were the progression of personal story featured paragon paths and epic destinies (themes are sort of in 5es backgrounds)

To me couching things in terms of an Epic destiny has more story feel and interesting thematics than arbitrary boons.

 

[Garthanos]

The one man army concept had some expression in early AD&D (though it almost never happened in practice) and also imagery of Conan or Elric Standing on heaps but it is much older go back to myths of Cu Chulainn who was described as standing on a chariot and using his weaponry to mow through the hordes of enemies on all sides as the chariot drove through. And is now vividly all over the place in a lot of modern fantasy yes some arguably D&D inspired and coming from Asia. A recent King Arthur movie had an Excalibur super charged Arthur doing something which felt like time dilation and the super sonic movement dave mentioned to attack hordes of enemies similar to the sword mage ability he also kicked up huge amounts of scenery in the process Yes in the story it was a magic item but to build that in 4e I would very much use a multiclass into the Swordmage for that paragon path and attribute the power to his special relationship with the artifact (he had to learn to control it).

Cuh Chulaine was actually presented as an example fighter in the 2e PHB and his story was very much about him being a prodigal youth learn at a very early age faster and better than those who taught him many "feats", arguably this is where D&D got the word feat too.

 

[Aldarc]

5e stops at lvl 20. It has no epic levels in my opinion. That is the point. It doesn't try to epic like 4e claims to be. What 5e does provide is something a bit different with epic boons and related post lvl 20 options. That is what I want in my epic, something different.

EDIT: I want to quickly note in case you missed it. My argument was 4e claimed "Epic is core, we go to level 30!" And it didn't deliver that. 5e doesn't make any epic claims. It does provide something in the DMG, but it makes no claim to be epic, which 4e did and didn't deliver IMO

IMHO, I beg to differ that 4e didn't deliver on epic. It's not that it went to 30 levels vs. 20 levels that made it epic.* It was more about the tone, themes, and narrative of these levels. It was how 4e said, "By this point, you should be working towards being a demigod or some other epic destiny. You should be a big darn deal in this universe now. These are the sort of threats you will be fighting, and these are the issues you will be facing." To me the delivery of epic was less about player abilities and more about the thematic framework. The 4e tier system (i.e., heroic, paragon, epic) was fundamentally about setting up play expectations for both the GM and players.

* 4e could have been arguably been designed in 10 or 15 levels without too much issue while keeping its three tiers. (See Robert Schwalb's 10-level Shadow of the Demon Lord system for comparison.)

 

[dave2008]

IMHO, I beg to differ that 4e didn't deliver on epic. It's not that it went to 30 levels vs. 20 levels that made it epic.* It was more about the tone, themes, and narrative of these levels. It was how 4e said, "By this point, you should be working towards being a demigod or some other epic destiny. You should be a big darn deal in this universe now. These are the sort of threats you will be fighting, and these are the issues you will be facing." To me the delivery of epic was less about player abilities and more about the thematic framework. The 4e tier system (i.e., heroic, paragon, epic) was fundamentally about setting up play expectations for both the GM and players.

* 4e could have been arguably been designed in 10 or 15 levels without too much issue while keeping its three tiers. (See Robert Schwalb's 10-level Shadow of the Demon Lord system for comparison.)

I really don't disagree with what you are saying, that is just not what I am talking about. That is the same issue @Garthanos is having with my comments. I don't disagree with his points. My point is that 4e doesn't change. It always has the same framework from beginning to end. It is kinda always "epic," how you and G and E area thinking about it, from beginning to end. The fact that you still have levels, that you still get hit points, and you still get your powers in the same way is what makes if feel mundane and not epic to me. I guess you would say it is the meta-structure of the game that I want to change when I get to epic. It is not about the story or what the character can do (as much) to me, at least with regard to what I am talking about.

Does that make sense now? I am not asking you to agree with me, just if you understand what I am talking about, where I am coming from. I completely understand that it has nothing to do with the game feeling "epic" to you. I am not saying 4e isn't epic for you. I think E seemed to understand, but I feel like Garth still doesn't. Just because I say the game doesn't deliver on its epic promise for me, doesn't mean I don't think it is a great game or that it somehow lessons the epic-ness for you. I love 4e and will always defend it (and did for years on the WotC forums), but I can still feel it has faults (just the same as 5e).

 

[dave2008]

Something else that made characters feel larger than life, which 5e abandoned from 4e were the progression of personal story featured paragon paths and epic destinies (themes are sort of in 5es backgrounds)

To me couching things in terms of an Epic destiny has more story feel and interesting thematics than arbitrary boons.

Again, I don't disagree - that is just not what I am talking about.