D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

[pemerton]

The thorny part of this discussion is that there have been at least three distinct “eras” where certain things were true. Yes, in the earliest days when these beings were first created, the clerics of Demon Lords and Archdevils were limited in their ability to cast higher level spells.

Only if a rule that was stated in DDG was then followed through consistently. But did anyone ever worry about that? It would only even come up if someone was to write up a 16th or greater level cleric (the level at which an AD&D cleric gets 7th level spells), and I don't think there are many examples of that.

The power dynamics here are bizarre, but I think that is only because we keep insisting that

1. Gods must be more powerful
2. Archdevils and Demon Lords act in the multiverse, while gods are limited to their worlds.

The notion of archdevils and demon lords acting in the "multiverse" while gods don't seems to me like a bizarre extension and rationalisation of some of the trends found in Planescape. It's a weird attempt at an in-fiction rationalisation of what, as you have posted upthread, is a question about the content and coherence of various game texts.

 

[BRayne]

There's a whole bunch of "lesser idols" (According to the Explorer's Guide to Wildmount; I don't watch the show). "This vacuum of influence [when the gods were banished] has given rise to a number of powerful entities who may not rival the gods in their abilities or influence, but now unchallenged, can amass a modest following of their own." They have both suggested warlock pacts and cleric domains, although I think the idea is that they have more warlocks than clerics?

I can't find anything on Orcus in that book, but it covers just one part of Exandria and as I said, I don't watch Critical Role or really know anything about it beyond what's in this book. And it's been a while since I've read the book since it's not the most interesting of reads for me. So I have no idea how he's treated there.

Orcus is referred to as a god, a demon prince, and a demon lord in various parts of Critical Role. God is pretty limited to early campaign one and even then you could just say he is one in the same way the various "lesser idols" are. Demon Prince and Demon Lord seem to be interchangeable and are used for Orcus as well as Baphomet and Yeenoghu.

 

[Helldritch]

Except for the bit about constrained spell levels, this is all found in Gygax's DMG and DDG is just reiterating it. What is new in DDG is the ranking of gods in three power levels - demi-, lesser and greater - and the corresponding rule about the maximum spell levels available to their clerics. I don't know if that rule was ever operationalised in any systematic fashion - many of the best-known Greyhawk gods (St Cuthbert, Tritherion, etc) are presented as lesser gods in the WoG boxed set, but did anyone ever worry about that when it came to statting out their clerics?

In any event, this rule has no bearing on whether or not archdevils and demon princes have clerics.

As an account of the history of D&D, this is jut inaccurate .

I and multiple other posters (most recently @Rabulias) have pointed out that DDG, in its section on non-human deities, expressly states that the archdevils and demon princes are to be treated as lesser gods. DDG was the first time that there was any sort of need for such a rule, because DDG was the first attempt to systematise the concept of "godhood" in AD&D. And it stated that these beings were gods. The fact that they didn't have multiple class levels is neither here nor there; and nothing in DDG talks about "using multiple abilities" - maybe you're thinking of something from MoP? (Though having just quickly looked over its Appendix on divine abilities, I didn't notice any reference to that.)

What norm, other than your own incomplete reading of DDG?

Missed that last part on the demi-human pantheon. I stand corrected and thank you for that. The only consolation prize for me is that it is clearly stated that these should rarely have human worshipers...

 

[Helldritch]

It sounds like you were playing the 2nd edition of it, which I liked, but not nearly as much as the 1st edition Immortals set. In the first edition immortals set you didn't get the ability to cast all mortal spells with a fairly small amount of spent PP. Each spell was a PP expenditure all by itself, and the amount depended on your sphere. So a spell liked with was I think 20 PP to cast for the sphere of thought. If you were of a the friendly adjacent sphere it was 40 PP, if you were the farther adjacent sphere it was 80 PP, and if you were of the opposite sphere it cost you 160 PP. You used your magic wisely and didn't use oppositional stuff unless it was an emergency. Basically, it required more thought and planning, so I liked it more.

We played the first edition. I simply over simplified for clarity.

 

[Chaosmancer]

No you did not. You ignored how I told you how we used it and you told us how it worked... but wait.... you do not own it and yet you corrected me on how it was supposed to work???????

I specifically asked you if I was understanding it correctly, and have consistently said I was working from your example. You never bothered to correct me or say I was misunderstanding it. If I did, then please explain it in more detail.

And where did I ignore you saying how it worked? I never disputed your example, which was that the cheapest option was to work through heroes instead of a direct conflict. That has nothing to do with anything else. All I did was take the information you provided and worked from it. If controlling territory and expanding influence cost PP, and Asmodeus has influence in a near infinite number of places, then he has a near infinite amount of PP. If mines need miners, and I have an near infinite number of mines, I must have a near infinite number of miners, it is basic logic.

We played the Immortal set for à while, both the published adventures and a few more homebrew so that we could explore how gods interacted with each others. Power Point was used to start projects/fights/endeavors with other gods for control of a prime or many primes depending on the power level of the god/immortal. The weakest the immortal, the more it must rely on mortals to succeed. A god must also be careful to not use/invest too much power in an endeavor or he might face a new contestant or if weakened enough through PP expenditure might mean it's downfall as PP put into a project/endeavor is permanent until that project/endeavor is/are resolved. Working direct interventions is costly and done only as a last resort. There were tons of rules on how much surprise PP on direct (read here divine) intervention could be spend comparing to the starting PP expenditure.

It was an enlightening game and it is unfortunate that it did not sell that much. At the same time, it was time consuming and requires a lot of prep both from the DM and the players. We were literally playing gods and it gave us a unique view on the interaction that was between different gods and different pantheon. Gods do fight for the control of faith as it gives them more power and more influence. At first in one prime world but as they grow, their influence goes to other worlds and the more world's they are on. The more they are challenged by other deities.

So yes, Asmodeus might be a god in a small prime, but in many others, he's just an arch devil. Lolth ascension to the status of a greater goddes meant that she could hope to be much more than a si.ple goddess of the drow and actually use a much broader portfolio.

So, godship is only acquired if you have sufficient PP invested in a single prime? Because otherwise I don't get this distinction of Asmodeus being a god in one place, but "only an archdevil" in another.

Does this mean that AO is lesser than Asmodeus in terms of power outside of Realmspace? Because he has zero influence in other worlds, but Asmodeus has influence in a near infinite number of worlds.

The stuff about relying on mortals is neither here nor there, that is all about using the power you have intelligently, and that has nothing to do with how much power you actually have.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

But, I agree. You could easily shift demons a little bit and make them take over that role with ease.

Heck, the Obyriths further complicate the difference between an Elder Evil/Great Old One and Demons.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I'd say that perhaps clerics of an arch fiend can have a limited number of clerics. They have only so much power to lend out. They probably can have a lot more warlocks, because it can be argued that most of a warlock's powers come from the patron zapping spellcasting knowledge inside the warlock's head and making the warlock draw on their own inner magic to cast the spells (hence the small number of slots, but their "mana" replenishes quickly), whereas a cleric or other divine caster actually gets both the knowledge and the mana from the god/philosophy/earth itself.

So a god can have absolute boatloads of clerics, but an arch-thing can have only a tiny fraction of that number. They only give clerical powers to people they know are in it for the long run. It's much cheaper for them to make warlocks, even if warlocks have a reputation as being, well, warlocks instead of as clerics.

That's how I'd do it, anyway. I'm not huge on the idea of people getting high-level spells from a philosophy that they don't even recognize or accept as a philosophy. I think that by saying you're getting spells from a god, you're unnecessarily limiting your own abilities. You actually believe strongly in a real philosophy (even if it's one of your own making), then sure, you can have full spellcasting. But people who are convinced the magic comes from elsewhere, no. Also, then a lot more people should have spellcasting, since philosophy doesn't just mean philosophy in this case; it means strong belief, and people can believe very strongly in a whole lot of things.

Sure, I'm not against any of this.

Though, I would say, that if we are considering Archfiends to be in a near infinite number of planes, even if they only have one or two clerics per plane, they still can create far more than a god can.

What is bizarre about how this discussion is starting to turn is that people started from the premise that the gods are stronger, but it seems that is continually being proven not true. The Fiends are simply stretched thinner, making the gods appear stronger, which then removes the impetus to have evil gods, because it seems they aren't actually doing anything that unique.

There's a whole bunch of "lesser idols" (According to the Explorer's Guide to Wildmount; I don't watch the show). "This vacuum of influence [when the gods were banished] has given rise to a number of powerful entities who may not rival the gods in their abilities or influence, but now unchallenged, can amass a modest following of their own." They have both suggested warlock pacts and cleric domains, although I think the idea is that they have more warlocks than clerics?

I can't find anything on Orcus in that book, but it covers just one part of Exandria and as I said, I don't watch Critical Role or really know anything about it beyond what's in this book. And it's been a while since I've read the book since it's not the most interesting of reads for me. So I have no idea how he's treated there.

Same, which is again why I said I wasn't going to discuss Exandria much. I do like that bit of lore though, because while those beings could have more warlocks, they very certainly have clerics, and this shows that at least in Exandria, granting clerical powers is not limited to gods.

Which, rolls us right back around to "what is the practical difference?"

There's another questions here: Bane is recognized as a god on a couple of worlds. And probably there's some planehopping sages on Oerth or Eberron or Krynn or in the middle of Wildspace who have a copy of Elminster's [Dating] Guide to Gods who would say "So there's this god named Bane, god of war, tyranny, that sort of stuff. He's not worshiped on our world, though; our world doesn't have gods with names like comic book villains. What were those Faerunians smoking?" But on these worlds where Asmodeus is known about, is he known as a god or as an arch-thing?

In other words, if Gods Need Prayer Badly, then perhaps the reason why Asmodeus and other such entities as arch-things instead of gods is because most people think that Asmodeus is an arch-thing and not a god.

Possibly, so then the question is, does Godhood become just a title, while the essence and power of the title holder does not change? Or is this something else?

(This is why D&D needs to publish Immortals rules. The heck with epic levels; I want rules for godhood.)

Very much agree. That would be AWESOME.

But, I'm more than certain I'd be unhappy with the final product. WoTC doesn't seem to do scaling well.

Where Asmodeus is a god, he's sometimes the god of tyranny and sometimes the god of indulgence and sin. He's effectively multi-classed. Bane's war and conquest. Even in Ravenloft, he only had law and order added to that; he didn't get a different portfolio. Bane is specced for battle.

I mean, I know that this sounds silly, but in a way it's not. Bane's a greater god, but so is Jazirian, who is the couatl deity of peace, community, and parenthood. And I'm sure you have no problem imagining Bane stomping Jazirian's feathery tail. Bane might not come out of such a battle unscathed, but he's not going to lose. So just because they're of equal rank doesn't mean that they're equals on the battlefield.

Also, Bane isn't actually dropping down to Faerun and murdering everyone himself (unless he actually has; I don't know from the Realms). He has his clergy and other minions to do it. And his minions are countered by the minions of other gods, many of whom are willing to work together to prevent Bane from taking over the world. And I'm fairly sure that open worship of Bane is frowned upon in the Realms, so even though he's powerful he doesn't have a lot of overt support.

Whereas Asmodeus can't count of getting help from other arch-things, and how many of his warlocks just grabbed power and then headed off to do their own thing? Warlocks aren't beholden to their patrons for power in the same way that clerics are beholden to their gods. And Asmodeus has relatively few clergy--who, like with Bane's clergy, are also being thwarted by the minions of other gods.

See, I don't disagree with this. I do agree that Jazirian likely loses a head on fight, with how DnD handles things. But does that make him less powerful? And, Asmodeus is also very very good in a fight. Just for an example, Zargon the Returner is a GOO that the gods couldn't defeat, so Asmodeus came to the Prime and beat him and sealed him.

If Bane got Asmodeus in a sword fight, he'd likely win, but that isn't how I imagine that fight actually going down.

But I do agree that they are both being thwarted by others, it is just the scale that they seem to operating at that makes the difference.

Because it might not be worth it for Asmodeus to do anything. If he kills Bane right now, what does he get? A helping of Bane's portfolio? (The Realms' god-portfolios seem to work like Highlanders) And what does Asmodeus actually want to be? A god of tyranny or a god of sin? If he wants to be a god of sin, then killing Bane does nothing to further that goal. If he wants to be a god of tyranny, then he has tons of other worlds to conquer first. If Asmodeus is actually powerful enough to kill Bane--which as I pointed out, he might not be--then there's still not enough of a reason for him to do so.

There's honestly not enough reason for either of them to care about each other. There's cults of Asmodeus in the Realms, but they're not messing with Bane. There's churches to Asmodeus on various worlds, but Bane isn't messing with them. But as I mentioned before, the On Hallowed Ground book considers Bane and other FR gods to be weaker "single-sphere powers." Asmodeus is actually probably more threatened by Tiamat, since she's at least a bit interested in world domination (or at least, in the supremacy of evil dragons, which is kind of the same thing), and she's a multi-sphere power twice over--once for dragons, and once for any world that worships the Babylonian gods--and she's a generally-acknowledged god in both Exandria and Krynn.

And there's one other reason for them not to fight as well--they could potentially ally with each other. Sure, I can see Asmodeus (since he has levels in God of Sin) actually end up betraying Bane in the end, but I can imagine them teaming up to take over a particularly difficult plane/sphere.

As I mentioned, the idea of "sin" in DnD is a bit nonsensical to me. And sure, they could be allied, with both planning on betraying the other, but I think the other idea highlights the issue.

If one of the logical reasons Asmodeus hasn't killed Bane is because he is too busy with other threats and other conquests, how can we say that Bane is obviously the stronger? Remember, then question we have been trying to tackle is "what is the role of evil gods"? And the most common answers have been "evil gods are stronger" and "evil gods make clerics". If Asmodeus can make clerics, and can be logically considered powerful enough that he just hasn't bothered to kill a god... then neither of those points actually support the existence of Evil Gods.

 

[Maxperson]

All I did was take the information you provided and worked from it. If controlling territory and expanding influence cost PP, and Asmodeus has influence in a near infinite number of places, then he has a near infinite amount of PP. If mines need miners, and I have an near infinite number of mines, I must have a near infinite number of miners, it is basic logic.

It's actually a False Equivalence and therefore a logic failure. Magical power =/= miners and mines. The vast majority of his influence is through intermediaries. There's no other plausible explanation for how a non-god could have influence in so many settings. It's impossible for him to track that many different things by himself.

You really should stop trying to extrapolate from incomplete knowledge. You will get it wrong(as you have here) nearly every time you do it(which is historically what has happened to you).

So, godship is only acquired if you have sufficient PP invested in a single prime? Because otherwise I don't get this distinction of Asmodeus being a god in one place, but "only an archdevil" in another.

No. The immortals are "gods" of varying power. They gain power like experience points if I recall correctly, and can spend the power to do temporary things(and then get it back), or on permanent things and lose it either forever or until the permanent thing ends.

Does this mean that AO is lesser than Asmodeus in terms of power outside of Realmspace? Because he has zero influence in other worlds, but Asmodeus has influence in a near infinite number of worlds.

Ao is an overgod. He could squash Asmodeus with his pinky nail. He's also to my knowledge the only overgod we've seen. Nothing says that he is limited to the Forgotten Realms.

 

[RoughCoronet0]

Ao is an overgod. He could squash Asmodeus with his pinky nail. He's also to my knowledge the only overgod we've seen. Nothing says that he is limited to the Forgotten Realms.

From what I have seen Ao is specifically the Overdeity and Supreme being of the Forgotten Realms, having control over the goings on within Realm Space and only Realmspace and answers to an even more powerful being.

 

[Chaosmancer]

You've given him the ability to be infinitely aware, so with infinite resources he could take over the infinite Primes all at once, right? Except he can't, because even if it was possible for him to launch that many devils onto the prime, he'd end up dead before he got halfway through even a single Prime plane. The gods wouldn't play around.

You made him infinitely aware and in infinite planes, by claiming he was the CEO too concerned with the "big picture" to worry about a little thing like an entire prime material plane. I've just been following your lead on that. Now you don't like that though, so now you are trying to shift it to me.

And what can the Gods do to him? They have no ability to just enter Nessus and kill him, if they could, they would have done it already. Well, except for the Blood War, right? And one of the conceits of the Blood War is if it ends, then whoever won is free to conquer all of reality.

Not really. I didn't see what he described directly, but what you said he said was, "he said that PP (I'm assuming power points) allowed Immortals to act in a location." A location. Singular. And from that you wildly assumed that one location with power points somehow meant infinite locations all at once with infinite power points, which isn't anything anyone who knew about the Immortals set would have come anywhere close to saying.

You claimed Asmodeus was a "CEO" and operating in near infinite plans. Helldritch said that operating in a single location requires PP. If you are both correct, then Asmodeus is operating in near infinite planes, which would require near infinite PP.

Okay. Well, he's still a god and his portfolio is indulgence.

In the Realms, supposedly. So, is he more powerful in the Realms than anywhere else?

The difference between an Archdevil and a god is personal power. The god would trounce the Archdevil unless it was weakened severely somehow.

And where do you have proof of this?

If by every edition before 4th you meant no editions, you would be correct. Archdevils have never been able to make clerics. I think you got confused by the earlier in the thread revelation that there could be clerics of Asmodeus with up to 2nd level spells. Asmodeus literally had nothing whatsoever to do with that and would never have been aware that he had any clerics unless the clerics somehow got word to him and let him know. In 1e and 2e a person's faith alone gave him the first two levels of spells. If Farmer Stan had enough faith in his rutabaga, he'd gain 1st and 2nd level cleric spells.

Pemerton has quoted multiple times for 1e and 2e. The D&DG set has been quoted that Archdevils and Demon Lords should be considered lesser gods, just like St. Cuthbert, whose followers were not limited to 1st and 2nd level spells.

Additionally, I quoted the Fiendish Codex's which talked about the domains of Baator and the Abyss being given to clerics of Devils and Demons respectively.

So, no, by "every edition before 4e" I meant 1st, 2nd and 3rd editions, as proven by quotes and text provided.

No. They are not. They don't derive power in the same way that gods do.

And what does how you derive power have to do with the power you have?

Pretty much. If he had gone tyranny, he wouldn't be a god there. He opted for more power and a different portfolio on Toril.

As amusing as that is, it doesn't match with his stated goals, intentions, or methods.

Which is completely irrelevant. Gods have different power levels on different planes, depending on the number of local worshippers. A devil with 1000 followers on an infinite number of planes isn't even remotely close enough to being a god on even one of them, whereas a god with 10 million on one plane is probably a greater god.

This fundamental lack of understanding is probably why you think Archdevils are close to gods in power when they never have been. Well, they've been close to being demigods, but that's about it.

So, is a god only a god on the plane where they are worshipped? Is their power only equal to the lowest number of worshippers they have in any plane?

I'm sure you can see the problems with this. If Asmodeus is only as powerful as his weakest area of worship in the multiverse, then the other gods are even weaker, because they have areas where they have zero worshippers.

We could assume then that the divine realms of the gods are set-up only to be calibrated by the prime's they are the most powerful in... and then we could assume the same thing for Asmodeus, who quite possibly has a world he rules absolutely, making him a greater god.

So, if a god goes to Nessus, how does it work? They have left their place of power, and they are fighting in a location where they are powerless? If they kill Asmodeus, does Asmodeus die everywhere? If that is the case, why can't he draw power from everywhere, if he is singular?

Your arguments only make sense if you look only at the Prime's, but we are talking about outside of the Primes, and that is the issue at hand.

No it's not "many" as they are spread around and they derive not enough local power from their small cults.

So, your argument is that his power is too diffuse, but it is personal power, so isn't it all vested in him?

I mean, sure, a guy who has a savings single account making 1 million dollars annually is very rich, but he isn't richer than the guy with a million seperate savings accounts that make 10 dollars annually. So, how come Asmodeus can't use the personal power being focused on him, but Bane can?

Okay. It seems like you have not been careful to avoid conflating one edition with another, because I've seen you arguing that the 5e Asmodeus is tyranny in FR because he was tyranny elsewhere. Not that Bane ceases to have a good reason to exist in 4e, but at least in 4e there's some overlap and competition.

Personally, as the embodiment of Lawful Evil and the ruler of the Infinite Plane of Lawful Evil... shouldn't he be Tyranny? I mean, I don't think that anyone disputes that Primus is a being of ultimate law, and Lawful Evil is Tyranny.