D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

[Maxperson]

But not instantly. It's not you lose one worshiper and bam you're a lesser god instead of an intermediate one. Unless you really want this to be that crunchy. Which I for one don't.

No, it's probably not that instantly. It doesn't seem to take all that long, either, though.

He can't stop people from worshiping him (or paying lip service), but does he have to accept the power? Or can he just the worship slide on by? Again, if he doesn't want to achieve a higher state of divinity, which is an if--but again, I find sources that say that gods can't enter the Prime without an avatar (I think mostly because doing so would anger every other god), but Iuz lives on the Prime, body and soul. Any stronger and he might get all the other gods to attack him.

The books and Planescape talk about the power of belief. It's not something you can just turn away.

It could also be that other gods are working against him and preventing him from achieving a higher rank.

They do that by killing off his followers. They can't just stop him from gaining power. The fact that there are so many gods who all feud with each other shows that. If they could do it, they would have been doing it all over the place and the books would be talking about it.

He has a lot of enemies, after all. It could also be that ranks in godhood aren't as cut and dried as "demigods have a few hundred to a few thousand worshipers" and there could very well be other requirements.

The D&D books would have talked about those, then. They wouldn't have been like, "Let's list the requirements of the various ranks of goodhood, but we'll pull a fast one on the players and leave some out."

Or it could just be another D&D mistake, since the DMG states demigods don't grant spells (to mortal clerics) but Iuz does, and offers the Death domain.

Another possibility is it's just a case of specific beats general. The general rule is demigods don't grant spells, but Iuz specifically does.

So all in all, I think it hardly matters if Iuz has one worshiper or one thousand worshipers or one hundred thousand worshipers and is also a demigod who grants spells. The only think that matters is how you want to use him in your game.

I agree with that 100%. Nothing I've said here should be construed to be against how a DM might or might not use Iuz in his game. I'm just arguing what we can glean from the books.

 

[pemerton]

Or it could just be another D&D mistake, since the DMG states demigods don't grant spells (to mortal clerics) but Iuz does, and offers the Death domain.

I think this gets things backwards. Gygax and Sargent didn't make any "mistakes" in publishing what they published; and Mona didn't make any "mistakes" in collating it for the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer. The Iuz tropes are perfectly clear - he is one of several ascended mortals/semi-mortals, who has somehow amassed enough power to be a demigod. He has priests and temples and cults and all the rest.

The mistake is thinking that all these D&D worlds need to conform to one technical conception of how a cosmology is to be ordered and how all these different entities are to be located within it.

 

[Faolyn]

No, it's probably not that instantly. It doesn't seem to take all that long, either, though.

So how long does it take?

The books and Planescape talk about the power of belief. It's not something you can just turn away.

I don't recall anything in Planescape saying that gods must accept all worship, or that they can't ignore worshipers.

They do that by killing off his followers. They can't just stop him from gaining power. The fact that there are so many gods who all feud with each other shows that. If they could do it, they would have been doing it all over the place and the books would be talking about it.

Or more likely, it's one of those things the writers didn't actually think about because in their minds, these gods are at whatever level of power until they need the god to become stronger or weaker. Don't forget that D&D works on game logic and background things only happen when they need to happen.

The D&D books would have talked about those, then. They wouldn't have been like, "Let's list the requirements of the various ranks of goodhood, but we'll pull a fast one on the players and leave some out."

The writers aren't thinking about fooling you. There are many writers who don't necessarily consult each other or even read each other's books. As @pemerton noted, Boccob is a greater god who has very little worship and doesn't even particularly want worship. Why? Because whoever it was who first detailed Boccob in this way decided that the Greyhawk god of magic was standoffish and uninterested in mortal affairs, but also that magic was such an important thing that any god who ruled or embodied it must be a very powerful god.

 

[Faolyn]

I think this gets things backwards. Gygax and Sargent didn't make any "mistakes" in publishing what they published; and Mona didn't make any "mistakes" in collating it for the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer. The Iuz tropes are perfectly clear - he is one of several ascended mortals/semi-mortals, who has somehow amassed enough power to be a demigod. He has priests and temples and cults and all the rest.

The mistake is thinking that all these D&D worlds need to conform to one technical conception of how a cosmology is to be ordered and how all these different entities are to be located within it.

I meant in 5e, where demigods are specifically said to not grant spells, but Iuz's suggested domain is Death. Of course, 5e also doesn't say that Iuz is a demigod, so we're left using previous editions for that info. It could be that in 5e terms, he's actually a lesser god now.

 

[Maxperson]

OK. How does these have any bearing on material that was written by Gygax and published in the early 80s, then built on in the later 80s and then again by the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer published before the work you're quoting?

This discussion is all about 5e Iuz and whether he's a demigod or not. When we look at the history of Iuz and godhood, you don't get to just declare that 1e is the only history applicable. 3e is just as relevant.

Boccob is a greater god. He clearly does not have millions of mortal worshippers. It's clear that St Cuthbert has far more worshippers than Boccob. That "rule" you've quoted from the 3E DDG is irrelevant to making sense of the Greyhawk published material. It's just something that someone wrote, and that WotC published in 2002, because they liked the idea of it.

And again, this is 1e. As of 3e he has significantly more. Below is from the 3e PHB page 53

"Some sorcerers favor Boccob (god of magic), while others revere Wee Jas (goddess of death and magic). However, many sorcerers follow some other deity, or none at all. (Wizards typically learn to follow Boccob or Wee Jas from their mentors, but most sorcerers are self-taught, with no master to induct them into a religion)."

From 3e PHB page 55

"Wizards commonly revere Boccob (god of magic)."

Whether he wants it or not, or cares or not, he gets the worship.

 

[Maxperson]

So how long does it take?

Up to the DM, but we know from D&D products where gods have lost worship, the downfall is pretty rapid. They don't spell it out to the minute, though.

I don't recall anything in Planescape saying that gods must accept all worship, or that they can't ignore worshipers.

Belief can move entire planar layers from one plane to another. A mere god can't hope to cope with power on that level.

As @pemerton noted, Boccob is a greater god who has very little worship and doesn't even particularly want worship. Why? Because whoever it was who first detailed Boccob in this way decided that the Greyhawk god of magic was standoffish and uninterested in mortal affairs, but also that magic was such an important thing that any god who ruled or embodied it must be a very powerful god.

It doesn't matter what he wants. As I just posted in response to @pemerton, he gets lots of worship anyway. In 3e, the edition where you need a million+ worshippers to be a greater god, Boccob gets that many. In fact, Boccob is strong evidence that gods cannot turn away the power if they don't want it. He does not want worship and doesn't care about followers, yet he's still a greater god because he gets it anyway.

 

[Faolyn]

Up to the DM, but we know from D&D products where gods have lost worship, the downfall is pretty rapid. They don't spell it out to the minute, though.

Which gods, so I can look them up?

Belief can move entire planar layers from one plane to another. A mere god can't hope to cope with power on that level.

That wasn't just passive "belief." Menausus got moved due to concerted, active efforts by the Harmonium to law-ify the place. by creating conversion camps for chaotic creatures. Unfortunately, I can find nothing that says how long the Harmonium had been acting before the change took place (or for that matter, why the actions of an infinitely small group of beings on an infinitely large layer had such a massive effect, but it's Planescape; it doesn't really have to make logical sense).

It doesn't matter what he wants. As I just posted in response to @pemerton, he gets lots of worship anyway. In 3e, the edition where you need a million+ worshippers to be a greater god, Boccob gets that many. In fact, Boccob is strong evidence that gods cannot turn away the power if they don't want it. He does not want worship and doesn't care about followers, yet he's still a greater god because he gets it anyway.

That could be true. It could also be that he simply doesn't care enough to turn away the power. He is Boccob the Uncaring, after all.

And honestly, I think it's even more likely that the 3x rules are simply not useful. 3x was the edition where they felt the need to quantify everything, even things that don't really need to be quantified or that actually resist being quantified.

 

[Lanefan]

Likewise for discussions of gods. It's madness to look at one proffered taxonomy in one part of one book - the 5e DMG, the original DDG, or anything else - and think that every imaginable D&D setting will, or must, fit into ti!

Had they come out right at the start, before designing any pantheons etc., and said something like "Here's the universal cosmology and structure which we're going to use as a framework, and every future setting or publication or what-have-you will be designed so as to fit into this framework" then at least there'd be that universal framework to look back at; and it'd be easy enough to see where (if not why) things changed over time.

But they didn't, and there isn't, and thus what you say is all too true.

 

[Maxperson]

Which gods, so I can look them up?

I can only find one in 2e(Gorellik), who had a slow decline. It doesn't say if that's because of a slow loss of worshippers or not. I know I read about more and some were quicker, but heck if I can remember specifically who.

That wasn't just passive "belief." Menausus got moved due to concerted, active efforts by the Harmonium to law-ify the place. by creating conversion camps for chaotic creatures. Unfortunately, I can find nothing that says how long the Harmonium had been acting before the change took place (or for that matter, why the actions of an infinitely small group of beings on an infinitely large layer had such a massive effect, but it's Planescape; it doesn't really have to make logical sense).

Belief isn't passive at all. Gods gain followers because they(or their followers) actively recruit. I don't see a difference between cultivating active belief by Iuz and cultivating active belief in some plane to shift it.

That could be true. It could also be that he simply doesn't care enough to turn away the power. He is Boccob the Uncaring, after all.

And honestly, I think it's even more likely that the 3x rules are simply not useful. 3x was the edition where they felt the need to quantify everything, even things that don't really need to be quantified or that actually resist being quantified.

I think if we're trying to figure out quantities of something, looking at the edition that did it or tried to do it is helpful.

Interestingly, I found this in the Theros book,

"Mortal reverence and worship turned universal ideas into deities. It wasn't until mortals trusted the gods to act on their behalf, in response to sacrifices and prayers, that the gods took shape from the dream-substance of Nyx. Worship remains crucial to the power of the gods, though mortals are generally not aware of their influence. Were a god to cease being worshiped, their might would dwindle."

 

[Faolyn]

I can only find one in 2e(Gorellik), who had a slow decline. It doesn't say if that's because of a slow loss of worshippers or not. I know I read about more and some were quicker, but heck if I can remember specifically who.

Belief isn't passive at all. Gods gain followers because they(or their followers) actively recruit. I don't see a difference between cultivating active belief by Iuz and cultivating active belief in some plane to shift it.

Belief is passive in the sense that the god isn't actively going around doing things to get people to worship it. Sure, it grants cleric spells (unless it's getting some other god to grant them, or the cleric is gaining spells through sheer belief), but it's not actually putting out much effort. Its clerics are the ones who actually do the preaching and conversion, while the god sits back and reaps the rewards, like in a pyramid scheme.

The Harmonium put out the active effort to remove chaos from Arcadia, but did so without kindness or decency and often by using cruel methods. The evil of their actions removed enough good to tip the balance from Lawful Neutral Good to just Lawful Neutral.

As for Yeenoghu, he actively instructed his followers to murder any gnoll who didn't worship him. I'm not even 100% sure he allowed for conversion. Some gnolls worshiped Gorellik or even Vaprak and got killed for it. Vaprak wasn't weakened because he had ogres and trolls, but nobody worshiped Gorellik but gnolls. Hence the decline.

However, it's important to realize that, as far as I can tell, Gorellik has been in slow decline since 1e (at least since Yeenoghu was created) but is still alive. So, I don't know how much time has passed in-setting since then (since that, of course, depends on the setting and individual DM), but it's implied that this happened a long time ago, not recently.

Maybe there are a few holdouts who still worship him, on worlds yet untouched by 5e's retcon of gnoll origins. Or maybe he has no worshipers at all but is still holding on due to plot armor, because "god in decline" is potentially more interesting and useful than "god-corpse that nobody knows who it was or who worshiped it."

I think if we're trying to figure out quantities of something, looking at the edition that did it or tried to do it is helpful.

Yeah, but not if it keeps contradicting other pieces of canon. Like with Iuz. He "should" be a lesser god at least. But he's not. Because of plot armor.

"Mortal reverence and worship turned universal ideas into deities. It wasn't until mortals trusted the gods to act on their behalf, in response to sacrifices and prayers, that the gods took shape from the dream-substance of Nyx. Worship remains crucial to the power of the gods, though mortals are generally not aware of their influence. Were a god to cease being worshiped, their might would dwindle."

It's been a while since I read the book. Does it say what dwindle means? I imagine it would mean that they would lose their shape and go back to being dreams and nothing more. However, I don't think that Realms or Greyhawk gods work like that. They don't seem to "dwindle" in that manner. They remain gods, albeit of a lower rank. They don't even have the cool option of becoming a different type of power: