D&D 5E FeeFiFoFum *splat* goes the giants

[Oofta]

The Hill Giants don't have to have full surprise, they just have to get lucky on initiative or even just survive long enough to try to splatter the mage (I've seen plenty of inexperienced parties NOT focus fire, a big mistake in this scenario).

But, in general, I 100% agree with you. Hill Giants tend to not live up to their CR rating against higher level groups - they're dumb (relatively) easy to hit meatbags - that hit hard if the party isn't careful.

So IMO, IT WOULD, be great to have a more nuanced CR system that could account for such things.

I will agree that the numbers multiplier doesn't really seem to really work all that well, especially when talking monsters with CR much lower than the PC's level. But it just ... well really depends. If one of the hill giants had a head band of intellect and was a giant amongst hill giants in the tactical realm, things change. Or if the party is just not particularly good at tactics. I've had players that flat out refused to focus fire and spread out damage as much as possible every encounter for example. If you have Tucker's kobolds, even an outmatched enemy can be difficult.

I do think there should be a paragraph or two on adjusting difficulty for your group and how each group is different. But you could have an entire book on encounter building theory and I'm not sure it would really help all that much. It's always going to be a bit hit or miss, the best they can do is give us some general guidelines so we can figure it out based on the group, number of encounters between rests and how the DM runs their combats.

 

[Mort]

If you have Tucker's kobolds, even an outmatched enemy can be difficult.

I've always hated Tucker's Kobolds.

Monsters that use reasonable tactics against the party - absolutely, that's part of the challenge.

But tactical geniuses that use every possible advantage to completely outmaneuver the group - it's usually a bit much.

I even remember an adventure where the kobolds strap beads from a necklace of missiles onto themselves and kamikaze against the group - which is just way too much,

And it's not even necessary, certainly in 5e with bounded accuracy. Simply have kobolds overwhelm an adventuring party with their overwhelming numbers and in a small space (to limit AoE effects) and even a high level group will be harried.

 

[Lyxen]

Deadly doesn't mean it's guaranteed a PC will die, just that there's a good chance.

Not even that, actually: "A deadly encounter could be lethal for one or more player characters." It could be lethal, but even the probability is not stated as high or low. What is sure is that if one PC bites the dust, action economy dictates that it could spread to the party ending up with a TPK, but that is certainly an extreme scenario.

As for Hard, it only says: "there’s a slim chance that one or more characters might die" so presumably the chance for a deadly encounter is more than slim, that's all...

 

[Oofta]

Not even that, actually: "A deadly encounter could be lethal for one or more player characters." It could be lethal, but even the probability is not stated as high or low. What is sure is that if one PC bites the dust, action economy dictates that it could spread to the party ending up with a TPK, but that is certainly an extreme scenario.

As for Hard, it only says: "there’s a slim chance that one or more characters might die" so presumably the chance for a deadly encounter is more than slim, that's all...

Good point. Throw in the fact that very few DMs stretch their players to the limit (the OP's scenario obviously did not). Depletion of resources is built into the calculation, if resources are never truly depleted of course they aren't going to work. Add in that there's no assumption of a healer in the party and on and on.

I think you would need some kind of AI that analyzed team tactics, equipment and build to have a "good" CR system. Maybe someday when Amazon completes it's purchase of every company in the world and we can ask Alexa to do the calculation for us. Until then the DM has to figure out what works best.

 

[ad_hoc]

So depending on how you formulate your statistics, on average the wizard still goes splat the first round of focused fire. If the giants somehow survive for more than one round while even one of them closes the distance while still focusing fire, there's a far better chance the wizard dies.

Deadly doesn't mean it's guaranteed a PC will die, just that there's a good chance.

It doesn't even say 'good Chance'.

Just that there is a risk. Even if it is just a 5% chance that is still deadly.

 

[Stalker0]

Just that there is a risk. Even if it is just a 5% chance that is still deadly.

I would say its much lower than 5% though. So at what point do we actually say something is deadly?

I mean if I have a medium encounter, the players have ice cold dice, and the DM throws a string of crits, I could still kill someone. The chance is extremely low, but its there. Its the same with deadly, the chance of low, but its there. So what is the difference....1% chance of death, 2, 10?

Perhaps the definition is: "could kill a party member in 1 round if the stars align?"

 

[Lyxen]

I would say its much lower than 5% though. So at what point do we actually say something is deadly?

I mean if I have a medium encounter, the players have ice cold dice, and the DM throws a string of crits, I could still kill someone. The chance is extremely low, but its there. Its the same with deadly, the chance of low, but its there. So what is the difference....1% chance of death, 2, 10?

Perhaps the definition is: "could kill a party member in 1 round if the stars align?"

For me, that is way too strong, because it's not even fun. This is also why it's advised to look at specific powers of monsters/NPCs to avoid this, even if the encounter globally seems right in terms of budget. Having a TPK after a few rounds because of repeated bad luck is one thing, but risking a death on the first round seems a bit harsh.

But of course YCMV and sometimes people do really silly things and take silly chances.

 

[Stalker0]

risking a death on the first round seems a bit harsh.

Again it comes down to degrees though. For example, technically those 3 hill giants could kill a 15th level fighter with like 140 hp in 1 round if the dice were red hot (not to mention the wizard). Now that is exceedingly unlikely of course, but its possible..... so are 3 hill giants just too hot to handle for almost any party?

This remains part of my issue... if we go with the notion that deadly is "very unlikely to kill, but could"...well that definition fits a ridiculous level range. And meanwhile while trying to protect players from these exceptionally unlikely circumstances we delivery a very large number of "easy wins" in the process.

I think I would understand it more if resurrection magics did not exist, but to me that is the literal point of them. Beyond the narrative, they serve as a game mechanic to allow parties to deal with these crazy edge cases where a players gets killed, its the ultimate "reset button". If a character gets killed in a "trivial" way through a "crazy circumstances of dice" the DM can throw a quest to the players to get him raised. And heck revivify is all you need the vast majority of the time unless you have a true TPK.

So I feel like 5e already has a safety button, already has a tool for that ".05% chance of deadly that actually happened". So to then throw in even more protection just feels like overkill.

I also think the death threshold is a major factor here, starting at 5th level. Now its clear WOTC respects the power bump of 5th level, the encounter thresholds literally double at that level....but I think that still may not be enough. Below 5th level, players are squishy, and I've found little issue challenging players. Even a decent crit can absolutely kill a player if its the right time, and so the threat is always present. But around 5th-6th level, the game transforms. Player death thresholds reach a point where it becomes exceedingly unlikely to be hit. This is partly why the healing whack a mole exists, and why I think the encounter thresholds are so useless. Monsters just don't do enough single damage to really bring potential threat, and with more attacks the chance of a truly high damage number becomes more and more remote, and so its more a question of death save and healing management.

Perhaps the easiest solution for me is to early adopt one of the level up's newest rules: Critical hits double all damage after you roll. Aka you calculate the damage, and then double everything. This makes crits a lot more swingy, which means a good crit can do a LOT of damage....and suddenly those death thresholds matter again. Perhaps that is the simplest way to reintroduce threat into my game

 

[Lyxen]

Again it comes down to degrees though.

And then, for sure, the probability, I agree. For sure, many encounters might lead to a death in the first round, but the probability being infinitesimally small also takes care of that.

So I feel like 5e already has a safety button, already has a tool for that ".05% chance of deadly that actually happened". So to then throw in even more protection just feels like overkill.

And then, it's only a game, meant to provide the players with fun. It's not some previous editions which were designed as "competitive" or the early ones with wizards with 1 hp and death at 0 hp.

I also think the death threshold is a major factor here, starting at 5th level. Now its clear WOTC respects the power bump of 5th level, the encounter thresholds literally double at that level....but I think that still may not be enough. Below 5th level, players are squishy, and I've found little issue challenging players.

See, here, while 5e can be played that way, it has not been designed for this. If it is your intent, I understand you finding it hard, because like lots of games of the 21st century (in particular computer games), it's what you would call "easy mode".

I understand you liking it, but because it's in the DNA of the game, the solution is going to take more than looking at the encounter computations.

Perhaps the easiest solution for me is to early adopt one of the level up's newest rules: Critical hits double all damage after you roll. Aka you calculate the damage, and then double everything. This makes crits a lot more swingy, which means a good crit can do a LOT of damage....and suddenly those death thresholds matter again. Perhaps that is the simplest way to reintroduce threat into my game

Threat of what ? Bad luck at dice ? Because that's a bit the source of the problem with making 5e more deadly. Death will come because of randomness, not because of "bad play" (I'm using quotation marks because I don't think that playing tactically badly is playing the game wrong) tactically speaking. That should have its own consequences, but it's another story.

 

[Oofta]

Again it comes down to degrees though. For example, technically those 3 hill giants could kill a 15th level fighter with like 140 hp in 1 round if the dice were red hot (not to mention the wizard). Now that is exceedingly unlikely of course, but its possible..... so are 3 hill giants just too hot to handle for almost any party?

This remains part of my issue... if we go with the notion that deadly is "very unlikely to kill, but could"...well that definition fits a ridiculous level range. And meanwhile while trying to protect players from these exceptionally unlikely circumstances we delivery a very large number of "easy wins" in the process.

I think I would understand it more if resurrection magics did not exist, but to me that is the literal point of them. Beyond the narrative, they serve as a game mechanic to allow parties to deal with these crazy edge cases where a players gets killed, its the ultimate "reset button". If a character gets killed in a "trivial" way through a "crazy circumstances of dice" the DM can throw a quest to the players to get him raised. And heck revivify is all you need the vast majority of the time unless you have a true TPK.

So I feel like 5e already has a safety button, already has a tool for that ".05% chance of deadly that actually happened". So to then throw in even more protection just feels like overkill.

I also think the death threshold is a major factor here, starting at 5th level. Now its clear WOTC respects the power bump of 5th level, the encounter thresholds literally double at that level....but I think that still may not be enough. Below 5th level, players are squishy, and I've found little issue challenging players. Even a decent crit can absolutely kill a player if its the right time, and so the threat is always present. But around 5th-6th level, the game transforms. Player death thresholds reach a point where it becomes exceedingly unlikely to be hit. This is partly why the healing whack a mole exists, and why I think the encounter thresholds are so useless. Monsters just don't do enough single damage to really bring potential threat, and with more attacks the chance of a truly high damage number becomes more and more remote, and so its more a question of death save and healing management.

Perhaps the easiest solution for me is to early adopt one of the level up's newest rules: Critical hits double all damage after you roll. Aka you calculate the damage, and then double everything. This makes crits a lot more swingy, which means a good crit can do a LOT of damage....and suddenly those death thresholds matter again. Perhaps that is the simplest way to reintroduce threat into my game

Do you run out of dragons after 4th level?