D&D 5E FeeFiFoFum *splat* goes the giants

[HammerMan]

Yes, it's a real shame that my level 2 PCs slaughtered a herd of tarrasques, it should only have been hyper-deadly x99 for them, and still, it was over in one round. Shame on WotC, honestly ! What ? What if my PCs had their stats rolled on 2d100+100 ? What does this have to do with the result ? And no, they did not have magic items, because artifacts are not considered magical !

the Tarrasque is the king of "CR and Encounter building doesn't work" if your party is made of experienced gamers, has the slightest bit of luck and just the basic items that you would find in a WOTC adventure, they can take him down at 10th level... If they are power gamers with good stats and/or good items by 7th level.

the guidelines break down in the mods they put out themselves.

 

[Mort]

The math:

assuming standard dc 15 save (18 stat +3 prof).

chance of a fail (-1 dex save) = .75
Chance of all 3 fails: .42

general average: 28 x .75 X 3 + 14x .25 x3 = 63 + 10.5 = 73.5

if all hit: 28 x 3 = 84

Ah of course, Dex Save (-1) not Con save - my bad. So actually quite likely at least 1 fails and (as you said) about 40% chance all 3 fail.

 

[HammerMan]

Replace the hill giants with CR 5 fire elementals. Suddenly fireballs are pointless and the enemy can't be stunned. Or just have the giants throw boulders from behind cover before ducking back out of sight. Heck, don't expect an encounter where a 5th level can throw multiple fireballs to be a good example.

Deadly does not mean risking a TPK. It means there's a decent chance one PC could die. Which, if the giants got even reasonably lucky they can. Each one can do 36 points of damage per round without getting a critical. Have all 3 go before the wizard and focus fire, with a little luck it's one dead wizard.

Or you could just have a caster use their most powerful spell multiple times and then be surprised the encounter is over quickly.

replace it with 2 (much lower CR) shadows, and a shadow demon (CR 4) make it overcast/eclipse/night/inside and you have a MUCH deadlier encounter with lower CRs...

 

[HammerMan]

Well, first, I ignore the multiplier for multiple monsters myself and use a slight variation of the calculator, which just barely makes it deadly for me.

Even with that, on average an 11th level wizard PC could be knocked out by the 3rd round based on the assumptions:

• Wizard has Con 12, average HP for 42, 11 base AC with 16 AC because they're casting Shield every round. The giants still hit on an 8 or higher.
• All 3 hill giants focus fire on the wizard throwing rocks the first round, closing in subsequent rounds.
• All 3 hill giants survive to the second round, so by the second round the wiz has taken around 34 points of damage.
• Only 1 hit has to land the 3rd round for the wiz to go down.

The calculations don't assume the wizard being able to cast their highest level spells, or monk stunning. They don't assume there's a cleric in the party.

Do the base assumptions work for every group? Of course not. That's why we have DMs.

an 11th level wizard... with a what for AC? 11?!? I mean at least give them mage armor... you know the spell they can cast, last all day and not have to concentrate on for the cost of the lowest spell slot... I mean most damaging 1st level spells are out done by cantrips and if it saves 1 shield spell it is worth it.

 

[HammerMan]

in general the problem is encounter building isn't math... I mean it's some math, but not ALL math.

instead of a CR 1/3-30 (is there a deity at 31 yet?) you need to break down the what and how of the monster more...

The shadow at CR 1/2 has 16 hp (well 32 or more really cause they resist almost everything) and when they hit they start a death cycle down (especially for str based combatants). Shadows are strikers, they CAN be beaten easy if you have the right stuff (strike like magic, the radiant damage ect cuts there hp in half because everything else doubles it) how ever they hit above there CR indicates, and a lucky shot or two can derail the entire adventure. that can't be broken down to 1/2cr

The Tarrasque is a dumb brute with no way to handle ranged attacks that avoid it's defenses.... and by end game there are ALOT of ways to do it. (jokes about the rogue/wizard flying and throwing acid killing it at level 7 solo aside).

You need to break out roles like they did in 4e, you need 2 tiers of rating (it doesn't have to be but I liked solo/elite/normal/minion) and you need key words for what kind of warnings they have. THEN you build encounters out of this.

 

[Stalker0]

an 11th level wizard... with a what for AC? 11?!? I mean at least give them mage armor... you know the spell they can cast, last all day and not have to concentrate on for the cost of the lowest spell slot... I mean most damaging 1st level spells are out done by cantrips and if it saves 1 shield spell it is worth it.

I would agree. At 7th level a wizard is still very likely to have it on, but has a bit more limitations and may need to conserve the slot for whatever reason. But by 11th, no any wizard actually out in the day should have that on.

 

[Stalker0]

The shadow at CR 1/2 has 16 hp (well 32 or more really cause they resist almost everything) and when they hit they start a death cycle down (especially for str based combatants). Shadows are strikers, they CAN be beaten easy if you have the right stuff (strike like magic, the radiant damage ect cuts there hp in half because everything else doubles it) how ever they hit above there CR indicates, and a lucky shot or two can derail the entire adventure. that can't be broken down to 1/2cr

Its an interesting thought. Probably the best way to show that is for certain monsters to have a "flexible CR".

Example: Shadow: CR 1/2, + 1 per 4 PC levels.

Aka we give some respect to the fact that a Shadow's effectively "scales with PC level". 4 strength damage for a 12th level PC is always as bad as for a 4th level one. Obviously not a complete scale because the Shadow's hp and attacks don't scale, and its resistance becomes less of a problem.

This gives the dm some indicator that a shadow remains a credible threat much longer than its CR number would indicate.

 

[Stalker0]

the Tarrasque is the king of "CR and Encounter building doesn't work" if your party is made of experienced gamers, has the slightest bit of luck and just the basic items that you would find in a WOTC adventure, they can take him down at 10th level... If they are power gamers with good stats and/or good items by 7th level.

The 5e tarrasque has several issues, mainly its lack of regen and inability to hit flying creatures (a lesson we learned in 4e!!!!)

The 4e tarrasque (and the upcoming Level Up Tarrasque) are much better versions of Mr T. They include:

1) Damage Immunities (to keep out the "riff raff" army)
2) High Regeneration
3) Ability to deal with flying creatures.

That's a scary T!

 

[HammerMan]

I would agree. At 7th level a wizard is still very likely to have it on, but has a bit more limitations and may need to conserve the slot for whatever reason. But by 11th, no any wizard actually out in the day should have that on.

i meant the mage armor was the bottom the floor not the top

 

[Stalker0]

i meant the mage armor was the bottom the floor not the top

And... I am agreeing with you.