D&D 5E FeeFiFoFum *splat* goes the giants

[Mort]

All highly biased samples towards using them.

I don't use multiclassing. I use feats but remove a couple.

It wouldn't bother me a bit to join a game which didn't use either. I might even prefer it.

Feats are better than no feats but where the balance really gets out of hand is when rolling for stats is done and tailored magic items. Then feats become very powerful.

So I don't really think CR needs to take it into account. I think if DMs use optional rules they should be expected to be able to gauge what effect on the game they have.

I don't disagree that DMs can be expected to do some heavy lifting (in encounter design and judgment) when they use optional rules, but:

1. I guess we disagree on just how optional some rules are (which is fine - disagreement is what this board is about - as long as it's civil);

2. Aside from that - there is clearly room for a more robust more encompassing CR system if it can provide more accurate results - even if it's a bit more complicated. The DMG has all sorts of optional rules, why not a more robust CR system? Failing that, there is certainly room/likely demand for a 3rd party to do it. There is HUGE demand for good 5e content that adds complexity/robustness to the system. I mean Level Up does exactly that and it's already at nearly 10 fold it's funding goal after day 5!

 

[Stalker0]

Whether it is 'on the cusp' or not it is still a hard encounter so should only have a slim chance of defeat by the rules.

At this point saying this is as intended just reads to me that you're just going to argue with whatever I say to try to win the argument. You've completely lost the plot.

As a person who has been constantly telling me "You need to adjust the rules to fit your group", the fact that you are telling me not to add a meer 50 xp to a fight with a monster clearly deadly to a single opponent and consider it "deadly" is pretty funny to me. I never said that the rules were absolute, I respect that the Dm does have to make some adjustment. My issue remains the extent of those adjustments. Adding or subtracting a monster here or there....of course. Maybe not use quite so many monsters that all have area effects, sure makes sense. Having to double the Xp threshold of most fights (already adjusted for 6 players mind you) and still watch my group walk away time and time again is a bit much.

So one of the things you have noted here is actually one of my problems with the system. Deadly as its defined is not really deadly most of the time, just a small chance of it. Ok, that's fine (I think its a terrible name but they do define it so I accept it for what it is)..... so what is really deadly then? 2x, 3x, 10x? What is the threshold for the "okay this is the BBEG that I want to have a decent chance of a TPK".... as many campaigns would like to have such a fight at least once in its run (because it is certainly not deadly, if I used that weak a fight for my group as their final fight of the game they would be so disappointed). Where is the threshold that's the DM warning "hey if you go past this threshold there is a really solid chance you might wipe them, in fact you should expect a TPK, you have been warned".

Talk about slight adjustment with minimal additional complexity. Just add a few more levels to the chart. Give me lethal and terminal thresholds for the "really deadly stuff".

 

[Oofta]

Replace the hill giants with CR 5 fire elementals. Suddenly fireballs are pointless and the enemy can't be stunned. Or just have the giants throw boulders from behind cover before ducking back out of sight. Heck, don't expect an encounter where a 5th level can throw multiple fireballs to be a good example.

Deadly does not mean risking a TPK. It means there's a decent chance one PC could die. Which, if the giants got even reasonably lucky they can. Each one can do 36 points of damage per round without getting a critical. Have all 3 go before the wizard and focus fire, with a little luck it's one dead wizard.

Or you could just have a caster use their most powerful spell multiple times and then be surprised the encounter is over quickly.

 

[Mort]

Replace the hill giants with CR 5 fire elementals. Suddenly fireballs are pointless and the enemy can't be stunned. Or just have the giants throw boulders from behind cover before ducking back out of sight. Heck, don't expect an encounter where a 5th level can throw multiple fireballs to be a good example.

Deadly does not mean risking a TPK. It means there's a decent chance one PC could die. Which, if the giants got even reasonably lucky they can. Each one can do 36 points of damage per round without getting a critical. Have all 3 go before the wizard and focus fire, with a little luck it's one dead wizard.

Or you could just have a caster use their most powerful spell multiple times and then be surprised the encounter is over quickly.

The real problem with Hill Giants is encounters with them are inherently really swingy, more so than many other monsters. Much of the time, they get handled FAST because they can be shut down easily (if a hypnotic pattern had been used instead of a fireball? probably even less resources would have been required!)

But if circumstances are right? They can pound a PC into goo pretty fast!

 

[Oofta]

The real problem with Hill Giants is encounters with them are inherently really swingy, more so than many other monsters. Much of the time, they get handled FAST because they can be shut down easily (if a hypnotic pattern had been used instead of a fireball? probably even less resources would have been required!)

But if circumstances are right? They can pound a PC into goo pretty fast!

Yeah, the system is far from perfect. Try building an encounter around flameskulls
They're only CR 4, right? A half dozen fireballs all going off at the same time is just a bit ... deadly even for a party of 6 8th level PCs. Not that I'm speaking from experience of course.

 

[Mort]

Yeah, the system is far from perfect. Try building an encounter around flameskulls
They're only CR 4, right? A half dozen fireballs all going off at the same time is just a bit ... deadly even for a party of 6 8th level PCs. Not that I'm speaking from experience of course.

Sure, or how about Intellect devourers? CR 2, HA! They can shut down an unprepared high level party that gets a bit unlucky on saves FAST.

 

[Stalker0]

Replace the hill giants with CR 5 fire elementals. Suddenly fireballs are pointless and the enemy can't be stunned. Or just have the giants throw boulders from behind cover before ducking back out of sight. Heck, don't expect an encounter where a 5th level can throw multiple fireballs to be a good example.

Deadly does not mean risking a TPK. It means there's a decent chance one PC could die. Which, if the giants got even reasonably lucky they can. Each one can do 36 points of damage per round without getting a critical. Have all 3 go before the wizard and focus fire, with a little luck it's one dead wizard.

This is a bit more than a "little luck".

To do 35 (which is the max) for a hill giant is a .1% chance. A 7th level wizard (assuming a 14 con) generally has 43 hitpoints. So sake of argument: Lets give that wizard a nice low AC 12. The chance all 3 giants hit him is 51% percent, basically a coin flip.

But hey lets say every giant hits and every one of them does max damage (.05% chance in total). Wizard goes down to 8 hp on the first rock, 0 on the second, and takes a death save fail on the 3rd.... aka 1 healing word away from being back in the fight with no death fails.

Ok lets get nuts. Lets have the giants crit 3 TIMES!!! This wizard is a pancake....right?

Now the chance of 3 crits in a row like that is .01% but lets not let that stop us. An average crit does 38 damage. First rock puts the wizard does to 5 hitpoints. Second puts them to 0, third takes two death save fails.....aka 1 healing word away from being back in the fight with no death fails.

So even under incredibly unlikely circumstances, with the giants getting initiative (with a -1 modifier no less) AND all knowing to attack the wizard first AND all hitting AND all doing massive damage.... the wizard is one first level spell away from being back in the fight. Now clearly this wizard is rattled, but he's not dead.

 

[Stalker0]

Yeah, the system is far from perfect. Try building an encounter around flameskulls
They're only CR 4, right? A half dozen fireballs all going off at the same time is just a bit ... deadly even for a party of 6 8th level PCs. Not that I'm speaking from experience of course.

The flameskull is probably one of the few monsters in 5e I considered under CRed. Even one of those things can wreck a 4th level party let alone what they can do in groups.

 

[Mort]

This is a bit more than a "little luck".

To do 35 (which is the max) for a hill giant is a .1% chance. A 7th level wizard (assuming a 14 con) generally has 43 hitpoints. So sake of argument: Lets give that wizard a nice low AC 12. The chance all 3 giants hit him is 51% percent, basically a coin flip.

How are you getting 51%? I show then need a 4 (+8 to hit) so are at 61%. Average expected damage is 38(at 61%) so with just a little luck, yeah they'll drop him!

But hey lets say every giant hits and every one of them does max damage (.05% chance in total). Wizard goes down to 8 hp on the first rock, 0 on the second, and takes a death save fail on the 3rd.... aka 1 healing word away from being back in the fight with no death fails.

Ok lets get nuts. Lets have the giants crit 3 TIMES!!! This wizard is a pancake....right?

Now the chance of 3 crits in a row like that is .01% but lets not let that stop us. An average crit does 38 damage. First rock puts the wizard does to 5 hitpoints. Second puts them to 0, third takes two death save fails.....aka 1 healing word away from being back in the fight with no death fails.

So even under incredibly unlikely circumstances, with the giants getting initiative (with a -1 modifier no less) AND all knowing to attack the wizard first AND all hitting AND all doing massive damage.... the wizard is one first level spell away from being back in the fight. Now clearly this wizard is rattled, but he's not dead.

But with a slightly different setup - let's say the cunning Hill Giants Engineer an ambush (or let's say I take a cue from an adventurer's league module and throw a hill giant that has a headband of intellect at them as one of the giants). Let's say they then surprise the overconfident party and melee attack the mage - that mage is in serious trouble!

 

[Oofta]

This is a bit more than a "little luck".

To do 35 (which is the max) for a hill giant is a .1% chance. A 7th level wizard (assuming a 14 con) generally has 43 hitpoints. So sake of argument: Lets give that wizard a nice low AC 12. The chance all 3 giants hit him is 51% percent, basically a coin flip.

But hey lets say every giant hits and every one of them does max damage (.05% chance in total). Wizard goes down to 8 hp on the first rock, 0 on the second, and takes a death save fail on the 3rd.... aka 1 healing word away from being back in the fight with no death fails.

Ok lets get nuts. Lets have the giants crit 3 TIMES!!! This wizard is a pancake....right?

Now the chance of 3 crits in a row like that is .01% but lets not let that stop us. An average crit does 38 damage. First rock puts the wizard does to 5 hitpoints. Second puts them to 0, third takes two death save fails.....aka 1 healing word away from being back in the fight with no death fails.

So even under incredibly unlikely circumstances, with the giants getting initiative (with a -1 modifier no less) AND all knowing to attack the wizard first AND all hitting AND all doing massive damage.... the wizard is one first level spell away from being back in the fight. Now clearly this wizard is rattled, but he's not dead.

The giants are +8 to hit, and each has two attacks. Each attack does 18 points of damage. Assuming AC 14, the giants need a 6 or higher to hit. So average around 13 points of damage per round. Last I checked, 13 x 6 is a lot more than 43.