D&D 5E FeeFiFoFum *splat* goes the giants

ad_hoc

(they/them)
So are you saying they stopped at 5, just picked some multiplier that "felt good", and put it in their table for 6 players without any testing whatsoever?

How is that not broken?

Some monsters are stronger against more PCs and some are significantly weaker the more PCs there are.

There is no way to account for the changing effectiveness of monster abilities except by having a CR attuned to party size. This would be a massive and wasteful undertaking.

You want to play with a party outside the scope of the default design of the game? You make adjustments based on whether you think monsters will be particularly weak or strong vs more characters on your own.
 

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Stalker0

Legend
A Ghost is a hard encounter for a party of 1 7th level character.
A ghost is CR 4 (1100 xp), x1.5 for a single monster against 1 PC = 1650. Deadly is 1700 xp, so just on cusp of deadly.

And yeah, one save and they could be gone, actually sounds deadly to me. Looks like the system is actually working here.
 

Stalker0

Legend
Some monsters are stronger against more PCs and some are significantly weaker the more PCs there are.
Quite true but I would argue that even with your most basic, ho hum monsters that have no special or scaling abilities....the math is still way off.

We aren't talking about ghosts that can eliminate a party member in a single save, or an archmage NPC throwing area effects that can effect more players. I'm talking a group of dumb elementals or a bunch of ogres, or....like the OP.....a good old mashup of hill giants. Even against those I find the challenge woefully inadequate.
 

ad_hoc

(they/them)
A ghost is CR 4 (1100 xp), x1.5 for a single monster against 1 PC = 1650. Deadly is 1700 xp, so just on cusp of deadly.

And yeah, one save and they could be gone, actually sounds deadly to me. Looks like the system is actually working here.

That's not what 'deadly' means.

It doesn't mean 'has 65% chance to lose on 1st round'.

Deadly is defined as:

"A deadly encounter could be lethal for one or more player characters. Survival often requires good tactics and quick thinking, and the party risks defeat."

It doesn't say 'the party is likely to be defeated'.

Whether it is 'on the cusp' or not it is still a hard encounter so should only have a slim chance of defeat by the rules.

At this point saying this is as intended just reads to me that you're just going to argue with whatever I say to try to win the argument. You've completely lost the plot.
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
And this is because you are not using 5e in the spirit in which it is intended. 5e is designed for standard characters with no options, whereas 3e was built with already partly optimised characters in mind. 3e was a geek game, 5e is a casual game.

Please accept that, if you are running optimised characters using options and probably dice-rolled stats instead of a standard array, you need to up the difficulty by 2 grades or consider your adventurers at least 1-2 levels higher. Then the maths will work much better.

But as long as you continue using 5e and its tools as 3e, you will need adaptation.

Feats, multiclassing etc. are technically optional but they're in the PHB and widely used (adventurer's league, for example, allows both). Is it REALLY to much to ask for a CR system that can handle them better?
 
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Oofta

Legend
Some monsters are stronger against more PCs and some are significantly weaker the more PCs there are.

There is no way to account for the changing effectiveness of monster abilities except by having a CR attuned to party size. This would be a massive and wasteful undertaking.

You want to play with a party outside the scope of the default design of the game? You make adjustments based on whether you think monsters will be particularly weak or strong vs more characters on your own.
Not just party size, but makeup and encounter specifics. In the OP's case the party got off multiple fireballs against a low dex monster, presumably getting more than one giant (my impression is all 3) in the blast each time. Add in some lucky rolls on the side of the PCs, some bad rolls on team monster and **** happens. If this encounter had been against 3 different CR 5 monsters such as Fire Elementals, the encounter may have ended completely differently.

Nothing is perfect, I've run multiple groups now and what one group would find a challenge, another group wouldn't even break a sweat. Other times encounters I've calculated a medium encounter that practically ended up being a TPK. Some encounters I expect to be tough are a cakewalk. 🤷‍♂️

It's the same argument that comes up every time. Do you roll for stats and have numbers significantly above the expected average? Do your 5th level PCs have multiple magic items each including rare magical items? Do the monsters use effective tactics or just approach on an empty field in fireball formation? What's your XP budget between long rests?

It would take something a lot more sophisticated than a simple calculation to take all the parameters into consideration. I think the guidelines we have are okay-ish other than the fact that I ignore the numbers multiplier but you can't ever boil this kind of thing down to a science. If it worked better in previous editions, it was because the expected party build was more constrained and predictable. They flat out told you in 4E what plus to weapons you were expected to have based on PC level, that progression was built into the math. With 5E? Things are all over the place between high ability score generation methods, feats, magic items, just general DM acumen.

TLDR: Every group is different. I have a multiplier I use for each group, some I use the base calculation, others I increase the budget by 50% or more while also setting up environments to play to the favor of team monster. It's never going to be science, encounter building will always be an art.
 

ad_hoc

(they/them)
Feats, multiclassing etc. are technically optional but their in the PHB and widely used (adventurer's league, for example, allows both). Is it REALLY to much to ask for a CR system that can handle them better?

Are they widely used?

Adventurer's League is what, like 1% of the player base?

A CR system that can take into account all factors is impossible and trying to do so is a huge waste of effort. Better to keep it simple, start at the baseline, and let DMs adjust from there.
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
Are they widely used?

Adventurer's League is what, like 1% of the player base?

A CR system that can take into account all factors is impossible and trying to do so is a huge waste of effort. Better to keep it simple, start at the baseline, and let DMs adjust from there.

I, of course, do not have a massive sample size - but I've never once encountered a group that didn't allow both. And even looking at actual plays etc. on Youtube - they all seem to as well (I'm sure you can find an example that doesn't but I haven't yet).
 

ad_hoc

(they/them)
Not just party size, but makeup and encounter specifics. In the OP's case the party got off multiple fireballs against a low dex monster, presumably getting more than one giant (my impression is all 3) in the blast each time. Add in some lucky rolls on the side of the PCs, some bad rolls on team monster and **** happens. If this encounter had been against 3 different CR 5 monsters such as Fire Elementals, the encounter may have ended completely differently.

Yeah, all of the character's highest level spells and they're calling it easy.

The Hill Giants all probably went and attacked separate characters too.
 

ad_hoc

(they/them)
I, of course, do not have a massive sample size - but I've never once encountered a group that didn't allow both. And even looking at actual plays etc. on Youtube - they all seem to as well (I'm sure you can find an example that doesn't but I haven't yet).

All highly biased samples towards using them.

I don't use multiclassing. I use feats but remove a couple.

It wouldn't bother me a bit to join a game which didn't use either. I might even prefer it.

Feats are better than no feats but where the balance really gets out of hand is when rolling for stats is done and tailored magic items. Then feats become very powerful.

So I don't really think CR needs to take it into account. I think if DMs use optional rules they should be expected to be able to gauge what effect on the game they have.
 

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