overgeeked
Open-World Sandbox
It's wild to me the entitlement and the complete lack of trust some players have.
D&D 5E Respect Mah Authoritah: Thoughts on DM and Player Authority in 5e
- Thread starter Snarf Zagyg
- Start date
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
When people come here and fight any potential DM authority so vehemently, it makes me believe that this isn't really about D&D, and that they have some deeper authority issues going on.
Lyxen
Great Old One
Yes, it's an attitude that I never saw before 3e, but 3e's avowed goal was to be player-centric, and that with the overall change of mentality in the world (and about that one, I'm not saying that it's a bad thing, my daughters are millenials and I really enjoy our discussion and greatly value their perspective), has created a generation of players that is quite different. I come from a generation where respect was due in particular for work and in even more particular for the DM's work in preparing the game and running it for the players.
This is, by the way, echoed in Tasha's section about session Zero: "The players will respect you and the effort it takes to create a fun game for everyone. The players will allow you to direct the campaign, arbitrate the rules, and settle arguments. When you are talking, the players are listening."
It is, obviously balanced by the DM's responsibilities: "You will respect the players by running a game that is fun, fair, and tailored for them. You will allow every player to contribute to the ongoing story and give every character moments to shine. When a player is talking, you are listening."
And finally with the respect between players: "The players will respect one another, listen to one another, support one another, and do their utmost to preserve the cohesion of the adventuring party."
These might seem a bit old fashioned to some, but I think that "a priori" respect and trust are really critical to enjoy the game...
So the DM just shrugs and states that it works that way and you, what? Pack up your stuff and leave the game? Based on this one incident?
I have politely exited a campaign run by a former boss (but I continued playing Talisman with his group), one run by a family member (his DMing style did not meet my preferences), and a game involving my group of my closest friends.
In the last instance, I had started the group and after several years, had to take a year off. The person that took over the GMing was not the problem (other than running a kick down the door campaign to cater the preference of a single problem player he brought in during my absence*). A day later, the GM and I had a talk in which he revealed that he was not having fun with the style of game he was running. Furthermore, after I walked out, he questioned the original group members and learned that they were tolerating the game.
* On various axes, the player rate extremly high on butt-kicker, optimizer (for butt-kicking), and powergamer. He complained about other people not building characters not being optimized for butt-kicking. Furthermore, if the game moved at all away form combat, the player would sulk and then become disruptive (first by whining and then starting trouble by attacking NPCs, endangering the party, and otherwise sabotaging the gaming)
el-remmen
Moderator Emeritus
You were just lucky then, because I had plenty of players with those tendencies in both 1E and 2E (and before I realized that just because we both like the same game doesn't mean we should play in the same group).
Helldritch
Hero
I think that your analysis is quite correct. I never heard of these behavior before 3.xed. Yes I heard of adversarial DM, but they were rare enough that it was anecdotal at best.
But the toxic player asking for reasons and questioning DM's on almost anything not readily explainable came about this edition. Back then I had a lot more groups and I have had 3 or four of these. They threatened to leave so I got up, opened the the door and asked them to get out right now. I then showed the staying players the notes and they all agreed that I was quite fine in my decisions. Two tried to comeback when their colleagues told them but I politely denied them access to my table. At this time, I had 7 or 8 different tables, some were weekly and others were playing every two weeks. I had no time for whiners...
Who's bowing down to these hypothetical chest thumping gorilla DMs? When I sit down to play D&D, I acknowledge that as part of the social structure and expectations of the game the DM has the final call on how the rules work. If I disagree I may or may not mention it briefly during the game. If I care enough I'll discuss it after the game. If the DM isn't working for me as a player I'll find a different game and disinvite myself from the next session.
If someone wants an explanation of why, in my levitation example*, the DM just shrugs and says "Yeah, the wizard levitates the horse and rider", it's not the end of the world. It's not, in and of itself, the sign of a domineering dictator. Maybe it's a house rule that applies to NPCs and PCs alike that they forgot to mention or has never come up. Maybe the DM is railroading the group and this is just one blatant example. Maybe they're just more concerned about the narrative and making the game fun for everyone at the table than being a rules lawyer.
What I won't do is judge this incident out of context or say that the DM is demanding that we be obsequious pleeb bowing down to their authority. I'll just disagree and move on. There are bad DMs out there, but I've never witnessed the power-hungry DM in real life. It doesn't seem like they'd maintain a group long enough to matter. I do have to question if the problem could be the player not the power hungry DM. [edit: in some cases, anyway. Or just a mismatch of expectations.]
*Kind of a dumb example, but while this stuff does come up once in a blue moon it's so rare I can't think of a real world example. Oh, and for sake of argument assume that as a player I know it's just a levitate spell.
What positive result do you hope will come from such a statement?
I have not had plenty, but I have had a couple. I also encountered more than a few online.
