D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

[Faolyn]

That's not a decent reason. Secrets of nature falls directly under Knowledge(learning secrets). It's a fairly weak justification for it and doesn't fit Vecna at all. Further, it's not the DM using his powers to circumvent RAW, it's the DM employing the RAW that @Helldritch quoted to you above about working with your DM to pick an appropriate domain.

Edit: I don't see that quote, so I'm not sure where he got it from that you have to work with the DM.

Sure, it's a weak justification. But by RAW, it's allowable, unless the DM says no (because DM beats RAW).

 

[Helldritch]

Sure, it's a weak justification. But by RAW, it's allowable, unless the DM says no (because DM beats RAW).

Nope that is not RAW.
RAW pick a domain. Choose a deity associated with it.
To fully quote the PHB (p.58):
Choose one domain related to your deity. (So deities have associated domain. Period. there is nothing to argue here.) Then we get a list of the domains followed by...
Each domain is described at the end of the class description, and each one provides an example of a god associated with it.

This means that (for example) If you pick Knowledge the gods associated with are (from the PHB under Knowledge)
Oghma, Boccob, Gilean, Aureon and Thoth. (beginning of the paragraph)
An other set of gods that can have this domain are:
Gond, Reorx, Onatar, Moradin, Hephaestus and Goibhniu. (end of the paragraph)

This mean that if you do not use appendix B of the PHB. Your god, if you want to take knowledge, is restricted to these 11 gods. You have no other choice. Of course by using appendix B, you get a whole set of gods with associated domains and portfolio. You might even get more if your DM allow the Dawnwar Pantheon! But even then you will be restricted to what each individual gods have as a domain.

So RAW, gods have one or two domains (some have three, I know...) and you get to pick one of those only. You got no other choice in this matter. This is also RAI. The player can not decides which god provides which domain. That much is clear. So unless you and your DM are cocreating a campaign world, you can not choose the domains that the gods will have. That falls entirely in the DM's prerogative. You have to get the DM's accord to change which domains a god might have. So tough luck to impose your will as RAW, you can not choose to modify the list.

The list of domains following the "choose one domain related to your deity" does not mean that your deity possess all these domains. This is simply a list of existing domains. Period. Your god will have one or two of these domains available. Nothing more nothing less (and yes, with some of the splat books, some deities get to have three. exceptions exists you know?) But even if a deity has three domains, it does not mean that you can pick from any domain. It just means that you have more choice of domains. You get to pick one of three, instead of one of two or one of one.

I really do not understand how anybody could read these sentences and assume that all gods could grant all domains... A DM can change things. But in that case, it becomes homebrew and not RAW and certainly not RAI either.

 

[Faolyn]

Nope that is not RAW.
RAW pick a domain. Choose a deity associated with it.
To fully quote the PHB (p.58):
Choose one domain related to your deity. (So deities have associated domain. Period. there is nothing to argue here.) Then we get a list of the domains followed by...
Each domain is described at the end of the class description, and each one provides an example of a god associated with it.

"consider the deity's suggested domains when selecting your character's domain."

Not "pick a domain assigned to the deity." Consider the suggestion.

And "Alternatively, your choice of domain could simply be a matter of personal preference, the aspect o f the deity that appeals to you most."

Or this line from the DMG: "As far as the game's rules are concerned, it doesn't matter if your world has hundreds of deities or a church devoted to a single god. In rules terms, clerics choose domains, not deities, so your world can associate domains with deities in any way you choose."

 

[Maxperson]

"consider the deity's suggested domains when selecting your character's domain."

Not "pick a domain assigned to the deity." Consider the suggestion.

You think that statement in the Gods of the Multiverse section supersedes

"Choose one domain related to your deity: Knowledge, Life, Light, Nature, Tempest, Trickery, or War. Each domain is detailed at the end of the class description, and each one provides examples of gods associated with it."

and

"As a cleric, you choose one aspect of your deity's portfolio to emphasize, and you are granted powers related to that domain."?

Both of those are in the actual cleric class in the sections about divine domains. The specific clerical rules beat general gods rule.

 

[Helldritch]

"consider the deity's suggested domains when selecting your character's domain."

Not "pick a domain assigned to the deity." Consider the suggestion.

And "Alternatively, your choice of domain could simply be a matter of personal preference, the aspect o f the deity that appeals to you most."

Or this line from the DMG: "As far as the game's rules are concerned, it doesn't matter if your world has hundreds of deities or a church devoted to a single god. In rules terms, clerics choose domains, not deities, so your world can associate domains with deities in any way you choose."

I would have a snappy answer to this failure at debunking but the following is right there

You think that statement in the Gods of the Multiverse section supersedes

"Choose one domain related to your deity: Knowledge, Life, Light, Nature, Tempest, Trickery, or War. Each domain is detailed at the end of the class description, and each one provides examples of gods associated with it."

and

"As a cleric, you choose one aspect of your deity's portfolio to emphasize, and you are granted powers related to that domain."?

Both of those are in the actual cleric class in the sections about divine domains. The specific clerical rules beat general gods rule.

And to go a bit further.
You have to apply correctly this: "consider the deity's suggested domains when selecting your character's domain."
This is not to say that you can ignore the suggested domains. It means to pick one of the suggested domain that will most suit your character. I am starting to believe that you read not the words, but what you want to read. Yes, stretching the meaning could be done. But it fails any close scrutini.

The actual read is reinforced with this quote: "Alternatively, your choice of domain could simply be a matter of personal preference, the aspect of the deity that appeals to you most." So the domain chosen must represent the deity at some point. And guess what? They provided some with the appendix and in the DMG.

In the DMG, it is even suggested that if you want to create your own pantheons jyou just have to pick one domain and assigned each one to a single god. This says a lot in itself. A god can be tied to only one domain and all clerics of that domain will belong to that god! Allowing two or three choices just make a god more powerful and more appealing to a wider variety of worshippers.

In fact, only in the monotheistic part, domains are clearly an open choice. But even then, it is an aspect of the One God that you will choose to worship/champion. In real world therms, you are Jesuite, a Templar, a Trappist or a member of some order of the One God. But all members of these orders are taking the same domain... On that, good night. Have to work tomorrow.

 

[Faolyn]

The actual read is reinforced with this quote: "Alternatively, your choice of domain could simply be a matter of personal preference, the aspect of the deity that appeals to you most." So the domain chosen must represent the deity at some point. And guess what? They provided some with the appendix and in the DMG.

The appendix provides suggested domains for your consideration. Unless you're trying to claim that "suggested"or "consideration" mean "you must take this and can't take anything else"?

In the DMG, it is even suggested that if you want to create your own pantheons jyou just have to pick one domain and assigned each one to a single god. This says a lot in itself. A god can be tied to only one domain and all clerics of that domain will belong to that god! Allowing two or three choices just make a god more powerful and more appealing to a wider variety of worshippers.

That says that's a very simple way to get every domain available, and more importantly, it's a simple way for new DMs to create a pantheon. It doesn't say that clerics can only take the domains listed for each god.

According to this Sage Advice tweet, "Bear in mind this means domains can very well not be associated with specific deities at all. #dnd #WotCStaff"

The books have repeatedly said that the cleric chooses the domain, not the god. They've also outright said that you can be a spellcasting cleric of a non-deity, such as a philosophy, concept, an element, or even alignment.

What this means is that the domains and the gods are not really connected. The player chooses a domain and probably chooses a god. Now, most of the time, the domain will be closely associated with the deity (if there is one), taken from "suggested domains" list. But that's not actually required.

 

[Maxperson]

The appendix provides suggested domains for your consideration. Unless you're trying to claim that "suggested"or "consideration" mean "you must take this and can't take anything else"?


That says that's a very simple way to get every domain available, and more importantly, it's a simple way for new DMs to create a pantheon. It doesn't say that clerics can only take the domains listed for each god.

According to this Sage Advice tweet, "Bear in mind this means domains can very well not be associated with specific deities at all. #dnd #WotCStaff"

This is the second time you've repeated that the DM can change the default as if that's proof of it being the default. The DMG is talking about the DM making up new domains for existing gods, so does not apply to the default. The sage advice is saying the same thing. The DM can change the default, which is what you were decrying is the only way for the DM to stop a player from picking any domain. Now you're embracing it, because the default doesn't let you pick any domain

The books have repeatedly said that the cleric chooses the domain, not the god. They've also outright said that you can be a spellcasting cleric of a non-deity, such as a philosophy, concept, an element, or even alignment.

No. The books have repeatedly said that you pick from the suggested domains in the PHB. One book said the DM can create an alternate religious system where different domain are associated with a god. Short of the DM creating a new system whereby you choose a different domain than the ones listed, you can't do that. This is the quote in the DMG. You need the DM to change the domains from the suggested ones before you can choose something else.

"In rules terms, clerics choose domains, not deities, so your world can associate domains with deities in any way you choose."

 

[Helldritch]

This is the second time you've repeated that the DM can change the default as if that's proof of it being the default. The DMG is talking about the DM making up new domains for existing gods, so does not apply to the default. The sage advice is saying the same thing. The DM can change the default, which is what you were decrying is the only way for the DM to stop a player from picking any domain. Now you're embracing it, because the default doesn't let you pick any domain

No. The books have repeatedly said that you pick from the suggested domains in the PHB. One book said the DM can create an alternate religious system where different domain are associated with a god. Short of the DM creating a new system whereby you choose a different domain than the ones listed, you can't do that. This is the quote in the DMG. You need the DM to change the domains from the suggested ones before you can choose something else.

"In rules terms, clerics choose domains, not deities, so your world can associate domains with deities in any way you choose."

Or in plain simple language: The domain comes with the god. This domain is associated with this god(s).

It exactly when you get a free item when you buy "x" item in a store. The thing you buy is fixed, the free stuff is fixed too. The only choice you have is whether or not you want the first item in the first place...

 

[Chaosmancer]

That's not a decent reason. Secrets of nature falls directly under Knowledge(learning secrets). It's a fairly weak justification for it and doesn't fit Vecna at all. Further, it's not the DM using his powers to circumvent RAW, it's the DM employing the RAW that @Helldritch quoted to you above about working with your DM to pick an appropriate domain.

Edit: I don't see that quote, so I'm not sure where he got it from that you have to work with the DM.

Are you saying that only Gods with the domain of knowledge know secrets about Nature? What then do Gods with the Domain of Nature know about Nature?

 

[Chaosmancer]

Iuz God of Pain and Oppression, official suggested domains - Death.

Arguing related domains based on his stories and attributes:

The Old One appears as a magic user and is son of the archwitch Iggwilv - Knowledge.
Iuz instigated the Greyhawk Wars and conquered his way from a kingdom to an Empire through war - War.
Iuz set off the Greyhawk Wars by impersonating a barbarian god and manipulating nations into war - Trickery.

Exactly, you could even add in Arcane there because of Iggwilv