D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

[Chaosmancer]

I would have a snappy answer to this failure at debunking but the following is right there

And to go a bit further.
You have to apply correctly this: "consider the deity's suggested domains when selecting your character's domain."
This is not to say that you can ignore the suggested domains. It means to pick one of the suggested domain that will most suit your character. I am starting to believe that you read not the words, but what you want to read. Yes, stretching the meaning could be done. But it fails any close scrutini.

The actual read is reinforced with this quote: "Alternatively, your choice of domain could simply be a matter of personal preference, the aspect of the deity that appeals to you most." So the domain chosen must represent the deity at some point. And guess what? They provided some with the appendix and in the DMG.

In the DMG, it is even suggested that if you want to create your own pantheons jyou just have to pick one domain and assigned each one to a single god. This says a lot in itself. A god can be tied to only one domain and all clerics of that domain will belong to that god! Allowing two or three choices just make a god more powerful and more appealing to a wider variety of worshippers.

In fact, only in the monotheistic part, domains are clearly an open choice. But even then, it is an aspect of the One God that you will choose to worship/champion. In real world therms, you are Jesuite, a Templar, a Trappist or a member of some order of the One God. But all members of these orders are taking the same domain... On that, good night. Have to work tomorrow.

And this is pretty trivially easy to disprove.

Let us look to Tasha's. There we see the Twilight Domain cleric. This cleric is associated with the stars, and night, but also watchfulness and vigilance. We know that protection and vigilance are part of the Twilight Domain, because one of the Gods associated with the Twilight Domain is Helm, God of Watchers.

Now, Tasha's was released AFTER Mordenkainens, so all the gods in Mordenkainen's would be fair game to be mentioned in Tasha's, correct? And we know that Tasha's lists can include racial deities because the Twilight includes Yondalla the Halfling Goddess.

Who does it not include?

Angharradh - Elf God of Protection
Araleth Letheranil - Elf God of Stars
Vandria Gilmadrith - Elf God of Vigilance
Gorm Gulthyn - Dwarf God of Vigilance
Arvoreen - Halfling Goddess of Vigilance
Gaerdal Ironhand - Gnomish Goddess of Protection


I could even include the Deities of Community, because another listed Deity of the Twilight Domain is Boldrei, the Eberron Goddess of Community. But, it was shorter to just list the deties of protection. So, either Helm should not have been listed with the Twilight Domain, or all of these deities should have been listed with the Twilight domain.

Third option? The domains are suggestions and can be chosen and applied to any deity it makes sense to apply them to.

 

[Voadam]

You have to apply correctly this: "consider the deity's suggested domains when selecting your character's domain."
This is not to say that you can ignore the suggested domains. It means to pick one of the suggested domain that will most suit your character. I am starting to believe that you read not the words, but what you want to read. Yes, stretching the meaning could be done. But it fails any close scrutini.

You have to read a lot in to get from "consider the deity's suggested domains when selecting your character's domain" to "pick one of the suggested domain that will most suit your character."

A more natural reading is this sentence is saying consider the suggestions when picking from all the options open to you.

You can normally consider a range of suggested options and pick a different one after considering them.

Other sections of the PH imply the list of domains available to a cleric is narrowly defined by a setting or a DM, but this sentence in the PH implies a cleric can choose a different domain than the suggested ones for their god.

Consider the options open to you when picking the options open to you is a particularly useless piece of advice.

Consider our suggested pre-done curated list of domains that are tied thematically to related aspects of specific gods when picking from among the clerical god powers is reasonable advice.

 

[Maxperson]

Are you saying that only Gods with the domain of knowledge know secrets about Nature?

No. That's not what I said or implied.

What then do Gods with the Domain of Nature know about Nature?

They would be the ones with the secrets to find out by Vecna's knowledge clerics.

 

[Maxperson]

Let us look to Tasha's. There we see the Twilight Domain cleric. This cleric is associated with the stars, and night, but also watchfulness and vigilance. We know that protection and vigilance are part of the Twilight Domain, because one of the Gods associated with the Twilight Domain is Helm, God of Watchers.

You have that backwards. Twilight is part of Helm's portfolio, because watchers need to be able to see in the dark, not because Twilight has anything to do in and of itself with vigilance.

Who does it not include?

Angharradh - Elf God of Protection
Araleth Letheranil - Elf God of Stars
Vandria Gilmadrith - Elf God of Vigilance
Gorm Gulthyn - Dwarf God of Vigilance
Arvoreen - Halfling Goddess of Vigilance
Gaerdal Ironhand - Gnomish Goddess of Protection

Odd that it doesn't include races that can already see in the dark and therefore don't need the twilight domain.

Third option? The domains are suggestions and can be chosen and applied to any deity it makes sense to apply them to.

When the PHB was written, you had to choose from the suggested domains in it. Once new domains come out, the DM, per the DMG, can add new domains if he chooses. Those are both RAW. What is not RAW is the player being able to add new domains to the suggested list.

 

[Voadam]

Greyhawk Vecna and related domains

Vecna god of evil secrets suggested domains - Knowledge. (PH 295)

"Choose one domain related to your deity: Knowledge, Life, Light, Nature, Tempest, Trickery, or War." (PH 58)

The Lich-God - Death domain arguably seems related.

As a god one of the things Vecna is known for was prosecuting a cursed unending war - War domain arguably seems related to Vecna.

Vecna orchestrated a scheme to trick another god as part of his plot to escape Ravenloft, enter Sigil through a loophole exploitation, and remake the multiverse from 2e to 3e - Trickery domain arguably seems related to Vecna.

 

[Maxperson]

Greyhawk Vecna and related domains

Vecna god of evil secrets suggested domains - Knowledge. (PH 295)

"Choose one domain related to your deity: Knowledge, Life, Light, Nature, Tempest, Trickery, or War." (PH 58)

The Lich-God - Death domain arguably seems related.

As a god one of the things Vecna is known for was prosecuting a cursed unending war - War domain arguably seems related to Vecna.

Death and war are tenuous at best. Just being undead doesn't mean death/undeath is one of the things you want to promote, and lots of gods go to war without being gods OF war. I might allow death domain, but there's no way I'd okay war.

Vecna orchestrated a scheme to trick another god as part of his plot to escape Ravenloft, enter Sigil through a loophole exploitation, and remake the multiverse from 2e to 3e - Trickery domain arguably seems related to Vecna.

And like above, just because a god has done something doesn't make him the god of it. Like war, I'd nix any attempt at trickery.

 

[Voadam]

And like above, just because a god has done something doesn't make him the god of it. Like war, I'd nix any attempt at trickery.

3.0 Deities and Demigods Vecna entry page 95:

"Portfolio: Secrets, intrigue"

"Vecna’s clerics subvert governments, seduce good folk to evil, and plot the eventual control of the world."

People can reasonably differ on what related to the deity means and whether a domain would be appropriate for a cleric.

 

[Maxperson]

3.0 Deities and Demigods Vecna entry page 95:

"Portfolio: Secrets, intrigue"

"Vecna’s clerics subvert governments, seduce good folk to evil, and plot the eventual control of the world."

People can reasonably differ on what related to the deity means and whether a domain would be appropriate for a cleric.

If you're using that Vecna, then yes, trickery would apply

 

[Voadam]

If you're using that Vecna, then yes, trickery would apply

I consider 0e-3.5 +5e Greyhawk Vecna one continuity, I consider the 4e and 5e Dawn War Vecna a separate continuity, and the Exandria Vecna a third.

 

[Helldritch]

And this is pretty trivially easy to disprove.

Let us look to Tasha's. There we see the Twilight Domain cleric. This cleric is associated with the stars, and night, but also watchfulness and vigilance. We know that protection and vigilance are part of the Twilight Domain, because one of the Gods associated with the Twilight Domain is Helm, God of Watchers.

Now, Tasha's was released AFTER Mordenkainens, so all the gods in Mordenkainen's would be fair game to be mentioned in Tasha's, correct? And we know that Tasha's lists can include racial deities because the Twilight includes Yondalla the Halfling Goddess.

Who does it not include?

Angharradh - Elf God of Protection
Araleth Letheranil - Elf God of Stars
Vandria Gilmadrith - Elf God of Vigilance
Gorm Gulthyn - Dwarf God of Vigilance
Arvoreen - Halfling Goddess of Vigilance
Gaerdal Ironhand - Gnomish Goddess of Protection


I could even include the Deities of Community, because another listed Deity of the Twilight Domain is Boldrei, the Eberron Goddess of Community. But, it was shorter to just list the deties of protection. So, either Helm should not have been listed with the Twilight Domain, or all of these deities should have been listed with the Twilight domain.

Third option? The domains are suggestions and can be chosen and applied to any deity it makes sense to apply them to.

The more you argue, the more I am convinced that you do not read but you skim. Everything you wrote is disproved by Maxperson in this

You have that backwards. Twilight is part of Helm's portfolio, because watchers need to be able to see in the dark, not because Twilight has anything to do in and of itself with vigilance.

Odd that it doesn't include races that can already see in the dark and therefore don't need the twilight domain.

When the PHB was written, you had to choose from the suggested domains in it. Once new domains come out, the DM, per the DMG, can add new domains if he chooses. Those are both RAW. What is not RAW is the player being able to add new domains to the suggested list.

The bolded part has been proven times and times again.