D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

I've never found the Sage Advice type stuff more useful for written rule interpretations than the primary documents themselves.
I hate SA. I can't have my Punchadin with these silly answer. A punch is a melee weapon attack, but it is not, but it is for another rule, but not for another... That is BS. A fair part of the SA I do not agree with so I stopped reading it.

Also. I hate twitter with a passion. I am not going to use that piece of ... Well, you know what I mean.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Faolyn

(she/her)
A backstory must be plausible and doable from the character's perspective. Outlandish achievements will just be met a stern no. Both from me and the other players.
"Escaping from jail," where the jail is in a small town, or a larger city with particularly inept or easily-bribable guards, especially when the character has special abilities, is completely plausible, doable, not at all outlandish, and is a thing that actual real-world people do fairly frequently. Unless you have already established that every single jail in your setting is guarded by much higher-level NPCs and magic, of course.

At this point, I'd like to see what you consider an acceptable background.

1) Priest, Archmage, Wizards, Warpriests and so many others in various other books (all official 5ed) and even in some other books. You know that the spells in the stat block can be changed don't you?
Gosh, I had no idea! :rolleyes:

Now compare that number to the number of non-casters there, and take into consideration that non-casters are going to outnumber casters in most settings by a lot.

2) Define high level? 5th level? Only an explosive runes is necessary and 200 gold from the treasury of a baron for one cell/prison where you might have suspicion that a person can either lock pick or casts spell is more than enough.
200 gp plus expenses. Are you assuming that the spellcaster is working for free?

Apparently the Adventurer's League has an actual formula for determining how much it costs to have an NPC cast a spell for you (in AL games): (Level)^2×10+(Consumed Materials×2)+(Non-consumed Materials×0.1) Using this as a guide, and assuming that Level means spell level, not caster level, and keeping in mind that high school math was a long time ago... that's 490gp, which is significantly higher. And that's assuming you're having glyph of warding set to either explosive runes or a spell that requires no costly components.

Of course, you can just handwave this and say it only costs 200gp worth of rare incense and powdered diamond and the caster works for free, even though that's quite implausible. And that the resultant explosion won't take out the walls of the jail (freeing the other prisoners), or kill people it's not supposed to kill (the explosive runes is a 20-foot radius sphere) including other guards who are within that range and prisoners who haven't been sentenced to death. And if you set it to a spell-glyph and a non-damaging spell, like hold person or sleep. Most of those have a duration of a minute, so the guards would have a fairly low chance of even realizing that you've been affected (are you going to hire a guard to do nothing but watch the cell of a common prisoner who is only just technically 1st level, on the off chance that they try to escape but get zapped by the glyph?). And then the spell is gone and your second attempt won't be impeded.

But if that's the case, why not handwave the "implausibility" of someone escaping from a podunk jail?

And yes, in comparison to the vast majority of NPCs, 5th level is quite high. I'm guessing there's a chance you play a lot in the Realms, where high-level NPCs are a silver piece a dozen, but that's not the case in most other settings.

No I am not truly using modern mind set. Just logic.
Heck, If I were a sexist macho and saw an angry woman blast a dragon with a mere flick of her fingers, you can bet your shirt that I would treat her with all respect and deference any man or whatever male is due. And with magic, you never know who can really use it. Danger level in fantasy is high and people are usually quite polite unless complete morons. In a world where someone can kill you just for the way you look at him/her, you quickly learn the value of politeness and a bit of etiquette.
Yeah, I hate to say it, but you really don't understand how sexism works. Unless you're trying to say that there's sexism in your games (because medieval mindset) unless a woman can "prove" she's scary-powerful? Uh-huh. That mindset doesn't work in the real world (if it did, then there would be no displays of bigotry in places where concealed carry permits are a thing). It's not going to work in a game world either.

If you have a world where there's no sexism, or no widespread, endemic sexism (or racism, or homophobia, or classism, or whatever type of bigotry you want), then it's a world that doesn't have a medieval mindset.

This is one of the defining thing in my games. Observers are often surprised at how polite even potential foes are. You simply do not know how powerful the one in front of you is and how this person will react to a slight or perceived sligth.
Earlier you wrote "Also, what would he the point of playing medieval fantasy or even Renaissance fantasy and using modern world point of view?" This is not a medieval fantasy or renaissance mindset at all. It's not even a modern mindset. So you answered your own question.

You know that in medieval times, women were much more respected than in the Renaissance?
I am going to laugh hysterically for a few minutes now.

You have a very strange idea of what "respect" means.

Were we not talking about a corrupted official? I doubt that a corrupted official is lawful good...
Who would be out of a job in a LG society.

The goal is to keep things rolling.
Here are two examples that happened in the current campaigns (I have two)
Players made an enemy of a powerful mage (read here, higher than they are).
That mage uses Arcane Eye to spy on the players. The passive perception of the best player is too low to notice the Arcane Eye on the spot (darkness, darkvision, so passive perception is at -5). So the players are unaware of the Arcane Eye. As they move, so does the eye.

Now what would happen if I asked a player to roll a perception check (and in these case I would call for the best skill to roll or would use the position of the players).
Did the PCs ask to look around for stuff? No? Then that's where passive Per comes into play. If it's not high enough, then oh well.

But let's say you want them to at least have a chance to notice the eye, since after all, action is better than inaction. So you pick the PC that makes the most sense to spot it and have them roll. The one with the highest passive Per. The one who is built for spotting things. The one who's been paranoid about being spied on. Something like that.

You will get a: "I wanna check too" but no one is aware. No one. But if you deny a roll, you might get a wave of protest for nothing and thus slow down the game.
Oddly, I never get a wave of protest when I say "no, just them."

And this still doesn't explain why you preroll. Why not roll right there and then?

Second example
Now in a game, if the GM asks the player to roll perception; this will put the player into paranoia mode and thus the party. Not so in my games.
In my experience, players are always expecting something to happen. The other option is expecting that nothing will happen, and nobody wants to play in those games.

And again, you can roll for the PC right then. It doesn't change the fact that most players don't like other people rolling for them, though, but at least we can trust that you are actually rolling and not just going along for the ride and hoping that you'll allow them to notice the whatever it is that's there to be noticed.

Strangely, the most recent player never even asked to see the sheet. He knows me enough to know that I would not cheat and he wants to keep everything a surprise. My other players use the sheet as a hint of what might have happened while they were unaware...

At our Friday Night Dungeons, a few people are surprised by the method just as you are. Once they see it in action, all doubts are thrown to wind. Try it. It works quite well.
Have you aware of the Geek Social Fallacies? I have to wonder if that player just figured that he had better go along because otherwise he wouldn't be allowed to play.
 

"Escaping from jail," where the jail is in a small town, or a larger city with particularly inept or easily-bribable guards, especially when the character has special abilities, is completely plausible, doable, not at all outlandish, and is a thing that actual real-world people do fairly frequently. Unless you have already established that every single jail in your setting is guarded by much higher-level NPCs and magic, of course.

At this point, I'd like to see what you consider an acceptable background.
Not much more than the basic. Relatives (parents, siblings and mentors if any). As long as it stands at about a paragraph or two.

Gosh, I had no idea! :rolleyes:

Now compare that number to the number of non-casters there, and take into consideration that non-casters are going to outnumber casters in most settings by a lot.


200 gp plus expenses. Are you assuming that the spellcaster is working for free?

Apparently the Adventurer's League has an actual formula for determining how much it costs to have an NPC cast a spell for you (in AL games): (Level)^2×10+(Consumed Materials×2)+(Non-consumed Materials×0.1) Using this as a guide, and assuming that Level means spell level, not caster level, and keeping in mind that high school math was a long time ago... that's 490gp, which is significantly higher. And that's assuming you're having glyph of warding set to either explosive runes or a spell that requires no costly components.

Of course, you can just handwave this and say it only costs 200gp worth of rare incense and powdered diamond and the caster works for free, even though that's quite implausible. And that the resultant explosion won't take out the walls of the jail (freeing the other prisoners), or kill people it's not supposed to kill (the explosive runes is a 20-foot radius sphere) including other guards who are within that range and prisoners who haven't been sentenced to death. And if you set it to a spell-glyph and a non-damaging spell, like hold person or sleep. Most of those have a duration of a minute, so the guards would have a fairly low chance of even realizing that you've been affected (are you going to hire a guard to do nothing but watch the cell of a common prisoner who is only just technically 1st level, on the off chance that they try to escape but get zapped by the glyph?). And then the spell is gone and your second attempt won't be impeded.

But if that's the case, why not handwave the "implausibility" of someone escaping from a podunk jail?[/QUOTE]
You assume a lot of stupidity from the NPCs. There are basic things that will be done to make sure an escape isn't as easy as walk under the morning sun. Casters pay taxes and they pay with services to the crown. This aspect of the game is handwaved in 5ed, but as an old grognard, I have quite a lot of background to rely on for such things.


And yes, in comparison to the vast majority of NPCs, 5th level is quite high. I'm guessing there's a chance you play a lot in the Realms, where high-level NPCs are a silver piece a dozen, but that's not the case in most other settings.
Yep, but High level never was set at 5th level. It was traditionnaly around level 9-11 (or what was known in 1ed as name level). So 5th level characters/NPCs are a relatively common occurrence. Also you do not need thousands of these to make a spell once in a while.

Yeah, I hate to say it, but you really don't understand how sexism works. Unless you're trying to say that there's sexism in your games (because medieval mindset) unless a woman can "prove" she's scary-powerful? Uh-huh. That mindset doesn't work in the real world (if it did, then there would be no displays of bigotry in places where concealed carry permits are a thing). It's not going to work in a game world either.
Ha but in a fantasy world, women never were submitted by a pervasive church as they could strike back if needed. Head of churches in a fantasy world are not relegated to men but to women too. That evolution did not happened in the real world but in a fantasy world, things would be different.

If you have a world where there's no sexism, or no widespread, endemic sexism (or racism, or homophobia, or classism, or whatever type of bigotry you want), then it's a world that doesn't have a medieval mindset.[/QUOTE]

Earlier you wrote "Also, what would he the point of playing medieval fantasy or even Renaissance fantasy and using modern world point of view?" This is not a medieval fantasy or renaissance mindset at all. It's not even a modern mindset. So you answered your own question.
Nope, in a fantasy world, sexism would be replaced by racism. The fear of the other races, especially "evil" races if such a thing is going on in your campaign. And skin colors would be entirely forgotten because it would be considered for what it really is. A skin tone. It is much more scary to see a horde of orcs (or whatever) than to see a PoC coming to your town. The first is a threat. The second, a business opportunity. What we take for granted in our world will be entirely different in a fantasy world. Especially in a world where demonic and evil forces are a real thing and not just a concept.

I am going to laugh hysterically for a few minutes now.

You have a very strange idea of what "respect" means.
Not really, laugh all you want. But it just shows how the church succeeded in relegating women to second class citizens only good for child rearing where previously they were seen as lore keepers, and in many cases warriors! Vickings and Celts had women among their fighting force. Women were often knowledgable in herbs and were effectively the healers of the village. Roles that the church did its best to remove from them with accusations of witchcraft and what not... But better not talk about real world religions as this is not something allowed on this forum. I'll have no further discussion on this topic.

Who would be out of a job in a LG society.
Fully agree on that. As long as this sheriff isn't caught...

Did the PCs ask to look around for stuff? No? Then that's where passive Per comes into play. If it's not high enough, then oh well.

But let's say you want them to at least have a chance to notice the eye, since after all, action is better than inaction. So you pick the PC that makes the most sense to spot it and have them roll. The one with the highest passive Per. The one who is built for spotting things. The one who's been paranoid about being spied on. Something like that.
I have been using this a lot with teenagers and it works. I have been using this with old and young players and it works. But nothing forces you to adopt it.

Oddly, I never get a wave of protest when I say "no, just them."

And this still doesn't explain why you preroll. Why not roll right there and then?
Speed up play? I thought I had been clear on that. My players do not protest, but I am sure that you get a wave of may I check too? Yes, your players will comply. Mine too. But the little time loss is there nonetheless. I have 6 players in each groups (2 +1 with the Friday Night Dungeon). Sometimes, in some adventures, both groups meet. That means twelve players at once. Even with 6 very disciplined players, saving time is very important. We usually play for about 4 to 5 hours per week or every two weeks. Time becomes a precious commodity and every single minute saved is precious game time saved.

In my experience, players are always expecting something to happen. The other option is expecting that nothing will happen, and nobody wants to play in those games.

And again, you can roll for the PC right then. It doesn't change the fact that most players don't like other people rolling for them, though, but at least we can trust that you are actually rolling and not just going along for the ride and hoping that you'll allow them to notice the whatever it is that's there to be noticed.
I will stop using the prerolls as soon as the players are aware. I think that in the two examples I gave, I have shown that I can be trusted.

Have you aware of the Geek Social Fallacies? I have to wonder if that player just figured that he had better go along because otherwise he wouldn't be allowed to play.
Why do you assume such bad things? Once a place is earned, that place is there until you decide otherwise. No players is afraid of me (at least I hope so). And that new player isn't a newbie in D&D. He's 37 years old, has been playing since he was 13 and I was the one that introduced him to RPG at our Youth Center (I was on the director's board back then. Volunteer work as the Youth Center needed help). In fact, half of my current players are former students of mine or people I met at the Youth Center when they were teenagers in the '90s. The remainders are old friends from when we were teenagers ourselves. So yep, I really doubt that my players are afraid of me.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
I know Heldritch has already admitted to just trolling with this jail cell nonsense, but the mental gymnastics are astonishing.

Firstly, as I stated previously, the cost of running a small castle for a day is 100 gp. A single spelled cell is about 500 gp (rounding up for travel expenses). If we truly assume taxes, like Heldritch wants, in a medieval mindset, well first of all the wizard has to own land. Medieval taxes were for land owners until quite a bit later and closer to the renaissance. Generally, you didn't own land until name level, at level 9 so the wizard owing taxes is already suspect.

But, additionally, the tax rate was 10% the value of that land. To have to spell a single cell would then mean that the wizard's land has an income of 5,000 gp per jail cell in the entire region. You could quickly be looking at a wizard who has a property worth 300,000 gp per year minimum.

Oh, and each spell is a one-off, so if it is activated once, I guess it isn't getting renewed for a year when the wizard's taxes are due again.


Additionally, this assumes that 5th level casters are common... in a world where Helldritch fully admits that writing backstories is pointless because 4/5ths of all characters die before 4th level. That is an 80% mortality rate. Considering not all wizards would immediately quit adventuring or start adventuring, you are STILL looking at a population that is going to be very small, and not at all common.
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
Not much more than the basic. Relatives (parents, siblings and mentors if any). As long as it stands at about a paragraph or two.
So, what, you discourage people from writing deep or inventive backgrounds?

You assume a lot of stupidity from the NPCs. There are basic things that will be done to make sure an escape isn't as easy as walk under the morning sun. Casters pay taxes and they pay with services to the crown. This aspect of the game is handwaved in 5ed, but as an old grognard, I have quite a lot of background to rely on for such things.
I'm not assuming any stupidity from anyone. You, however, are assuming lots of things: that this background escape would be easy, or that casters are willing to pay with their services (or for that matter, that they owe so much in taxes that it would require multiple castings to pay it off), or that the crown is willing to accept magic (which could easily be dispelled, countered, or simply used up within a few days) instead of actual cash.

(I've been gaming since 2e myself; I also have lots of background and resources.)

Yep, but High level never was set at 5th level. It was traditionnaly around level 9-11 (or what was known in 1ed as name level). So 5th level characters/NPCs are a relatively common occurrence. Also you do not need thousands of these to make a spell once in a while.
High level in comparison to the NPCs of the world, not to the party.

Not really, laugh all you want. But it just shows how the church succeeded in relegating women to second class citizens only good for child rearing where previously they were seen as lore keepers, and in many cases warriors! Vickings and Celts had women among their fighting force. Women were often knowledgable in herbs and were effectively the healers of the village. Roles that the church did its best to remove from them with accusations of witchcraft and what not... But better not talk about real world religions as this is not something allowed on this forum. I'll have no further discussion on this topic.
Are you actually lecturing a woman on historical sexism here? And trying to claim that Viking women were treated equally? Better than in many places, yes. Equally? No. (Especially since a lot of knowledge about the Celts is seen through the eyes of the Roman invaders, who were extremely sexist.)

And if you're not having a game that involves Vikings or Celts...?

Speed up play? I thought I had been clear on that. My players do not protest, but I am sure that you get a wave of may I check too? Yes, your players will comply. Mine too. But the little time loss is there nonetheless. I have 6 players in each groups (2 +1 with the Friday Night Dungeon). Sometimes, in some adventures, both groups meet. That means twelve players at once. Even with 6 very disciplined players, saving time is very important. We usually play for about 4 to 5 hours per week or every two weeks. Time becomes a precious commodity and every single minute saved is precious game time saved.
Yeah, my group has a bit less than two hours a week (six players and one GM), with occasional breaks because of internet issues or other things (like two players have toddler who has a dubious relationship with the concept of bedtimes), and the one or two seconds it takes on the chance that the other players misunderstand "So-and-so, make a Perception check" to mean "everyone, make a Perception check" doesn't actually take up that much time. And no, they don't try to ask for other skills or engage in other activities to get around them not trying to roll a check either.

Why do you assume such bad things? Once a place is earned, that place is there until you decide otherwise. No players is afraid of me (at least I hope so). And that new player isn't a newbie in D&D. He's 37 years old, has been playing since he was 13 and I was the one that introduced him to RPG at our Youth Center (I was on the director's board back then. Volunteer work as the Youth Center needed help). In fact, half of my current players are former students of mine or people I met at the Youth Center when they were teenagers in the '90s. The remainders are old friends from when we were teenagers ourselves. So yep, I really doubt that my players are afraid of me.
Not afraid of you; afraid to rock the boat. Afraid of being the odd one out. Afraid of being seen as the complainer.

But if that's not the case, then I apologize. I still would not want that to happen in any game I'm in. Either roll then and there, or just make something up on the spot. Having a pre-planned list is, to me, weird and creepy, like you're choosing ahead of time whether I succeed or fail.
 

So, what, you discourage people from writing deep or inventive backgrounds?
Both yes and no.
The death rate of new characters is very high and character creation takes about 20 minutes.
Here is how it works.
Session zero: We meet, discuss which type of campaign the players want (12 of them, that will split into two groups) if both campaign start at the same time or simply the six players of the current group if a TPK caused the new campaign to spring.
About half an hour is allocated to this.
Then we vote on the optional rules we will incorporate. I have a doc that lists all current "official" optional rules in both the DMG and the PHB. This takes about 10 minutes as we have a very well oiled machine on that.
Character creation takes about 10 minutes, including background.
In general, after an hour or so, we start the game.

This is a very fast way to start. Unless the campaign is a continuous adventure (as in many books in 5ed, such as Ravenloft, ToA and the likes); time between adventures can be very long. Months even years may pass between adventures. Players are encouraged to write up what went on during that time and often we will have what we call small spinoffs adventure related to what they wrote. This is where more detailed backgrounds will come into play. This usualy happens around level 5.

I'm not assuming any stupidity from anyone. You, however, are assuming lots of things: that this background escape would be easy, or that casters are willing to pay with their services (or for that matter, that they owe so much in taxes that it would require multiple castings to pay it off), or that the crown is willing to accept magic (which could easily be dispelled, countered, or simply used up within a few days) instead of actual cash.

(I've been gaming since 2e myself; I also have lots of background and resources.)

High level in comparison to the NPCs of the world, not to the party.
You know that in ancient times, most taxes were paid in services to your lords. The system in which taxation on income declaration is, again, something relatively new that truly started around industrialization. Before that, the income taxman, (may the devils get his soul) would come to your house and evaluate your worth and would tax you on what you owned that he could see. This is why people were hidding a lot of their "wealth" where the taxman would not find them. So paying with services was quite common. Especialy if you had a valuable line of work such as blacksmithing, milling or something else valuable.

As for the comparison to the general populace. Point noted. Point ignored. Players do not and will not encounter normal people and start to slay them. I prefer to keep them in the background. This means that exceptional people will meet exceptional people. Adventurer will meet threat that normal people will never see (or if they do, they will flee or die).


Are you actually lecturing a woman on historical sexism here? And trying to claim that Viking women were treated equally? Better than in many places, yes. Equally? No. (Especially since a lot of knowledge about the Celts is seen through the eyes of the Roman invaders, who were extremely sexist.)

And if you're not having a game that involves Vikings or Celts...?
"grumble, grumble" Yeah... this is the same lecture I received from my daugther that studies anthropology as her second university degree. I felt much the same. But so far, the theory seems to work. The anthropologist have already found a woman in her tomb that was fully dressed and received the burial rites of a warrior in Norwegia. (or is it Scandinavia). This would seem to give credence to the oral tradition that some were claiming. Accounts were found that Celt woman were fighting, and were often the leaders even in roman times and were instrumental in some of their defeat. And my father always told me to never underestimate the fury of a woman.

(and here in America, most first nation tribes were a matriarchy. Males were chiefs only in times of war... It is the English model of reserve and machism that forced first nations to choose political male chief because they were unable to admit that a woman could lead her people...)

Yeah, my group has a bit less than two hours a week (six players and one GM), with occasional breaks because of internet issues or other things (like two players have toddler who has a dubious relationship with the concept of bedtimes), and the one or two seconds it takes on the chance that the other players misunderstand "So-and-so, make a Perception check" to mean "everyone, make a Perception check" doesn't actually take up that much time. And no, they don't try to ask for other skills or engage in other activities to get around them not trying to roll a check either.
We have the same issues. Thus the will to optimize gameplay. But I fully admit that it might not be for everyone. This, for us, is a better solution than seeing a DM fudging to drive a story. At least with this, everything is fully transparent at the end of the game.

Not afraid of you; afraid to rock the boat. Afraid of being the odd one out. Afraid of being seen as the complainer.
If only you knew him... you'd see that he is not the kind to back down to please people. If I am sometimes a bit blunt in my comments, he is a sledge hammer. And He will not hesitate to complain whenever he sees something that seems out of the norm. Especially in gaming.

But if that's not the case, then I apologize. I still would not want that to happen in any game I'm in. Either roll then and there, or just make something up on the spot. Having a pre-planned list is, to me, weird and creepy, like you're choosing ahead of time whether I succeed or fail.
I fully admit that without seeing the thing in action, it might be strange and to the limit of cheating. Nothing can be further from the truth but appearances are sometimes just that. Appearances. You do not need to apologize. No offense were ever taken or even perceived from my part. In fact, I do welcome your doubts. Reviewing my ways of doing thing is not a bad thing and who knows, maybe a small survey of my players will prove me wrong...
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
Both yes and no.
The death rate of new characters is very high and character creation takes about 20 minutes.
So very different from what my group does, which always involves fairly complete character backgrounds and motivations, even if they're sometimes written in bullet rather than paragraph format. We don't have many low-level deaths, but then again, our group is as likely to try negotiations or stealth instead of straight-up combat. These backgrounds are pretty important to us.

So maybe there's the disconnect. Backgrounds aren't as important in your games, since characters can die at any moment, so the idea that someone could have a jailbreak in their story is anathema to you. Backgrounds are important at my table, so as long as the jailbreak was logically done (i.e., not from a very well-guarded or highly magical prison), then it's great because there are instant plot hooks for that character.

You know that in ancient times, most taxes were paid in services to your lords. The system in which taxation on income declaration is, again, something relatively new that truly started around industrialization. Before that, the income taxman, (may the devils get his soul) would come to your house and evaluate your worth and would tax you on what you owned that he could see. This is why people were hidding a lot of their "wealth" where the taxman would not find them. So paying with services was quite common. Especialy if you had a valuable line of work such as blacksmithing, milling or something else valuable.
D&D is not ancient times. It's a completely different entity, that by default doesn't function like any real-world system. It's why, in 5e, "Folk Hero" is a background but "Serf" isn't. And despite the books occasionally bringing up concepts like the barter system, it's a setting that runs on cash money.

Spellcasters are not farmers, laborers, or merchants. They have literal magic. Some may choose to pay their taxes in services. But I think most would not--assuming they even pay deign taxes in the first place.

As for the comparison to the general populace. Point noted. Point ignored. Players do not and will not encounter normal people and start to slay them. I prefer to keep them in the background. This means that exceptional people will meet exceptional people. Adventurer will meet threat that normal people will never see (or if they do, they will flee or die).
Have you considered trying to get your players to not be murderhoboes? NPCs can be great fun. For one of the games I'm in, where I'm playing part-owner of a bar (kalashtar psi knight), the DM and I spent like an hour going over the other two owners and the regular patrons, coming up with more and more ideas--none of which were "exceptional" in an adventuring sense, but all of which made my background more interesting.

"grumble, grumble" Yeah... this is the same lecture I received from my daugther that studies anthropology as her second university degree. I felt much the same. But so far, the theory seems to work.
So, you're ignoring someone who is actually studying anthropology because of an article you read. See, mansplaining is like...

(and here in America, most first nation tribes were a matriarchy. Males were chiefs only in times of war... It is the English model of reserve and machism that forced first nations to choose political male chief because they were unable to admit that a woman could lead her people...)
Many, not most. Some had strict gender roles. This has nothing to do with sexism in D&D, or with removing sexism from a fantasy game traditionally set in a world that is vaguely European (not North American) and sorta medieval/renaissance in technology and already comes pre-filled with anachronisms. This also has nothing to do with the fact that it's perfectly fine to play D&D with a modern mindset.
 

I know Heldritch has already admitted to just trolling with this jail cell nonsense, but the mental gymnastics are astonishing.

Firstly, as I stated previously, the cost of running a small castle for a day is 100 gp. A single spelled cell is about 500 gp (rounding up for travel expenses). If we truly assume taxes, like Heldritch wants, in a medieval mindset, well first of all the wizard has to own land. Medieval taxes were for land owners until quite a bit later and closer to the renaissance. Generally, you didn't own land until name level, at level 9 so the wizard owing taxes is already suspect.

But, additionally, the tax rate was 10% the value of that land. To have to spell a single cell would then mean that the wizard's land has an income of 5,000 gp per jail cell in the entire region. You could quickly be looking at a wizard who has a property worth 300,000 gp per year minimum.

Oh, and each spell is a one-off, so if it is activated once, I guess it isn't getting renewed for a year when the wizard's taxes are due again.


Additionally, this assumes that 5th level casters are common... in a world where Helldritch fully admits that writing backstories is pointless because 4/5ths of all characters die before 4th level. That is an 80% mortality rate. Considering not all wizards would immediately quit adventuring or start adventuring, you are STILL looking at a population that is going to be very small, and not at all common.
Yes the death toll is high, but so much as in any similar endeavor and styles. Lots of adventurer will retire around the level 5 simply because it is at these levels that you start to encounter more and more organized foes.

The gun blazing adventurer types will die quickly without any remorse as such is the life when you are an adventurer. That is why players will take side kicks to assist in their various adventures.

Most players usually get one side kick NPC or at least two side kick per groups. This way when a player dies, the side kick gets " promoted" into full fledged adventurer with the full stats of a PC. This help a lot for the continuity. This means that characters that do survive and do not retire, will rise into high levels. By the time players reach 9th level they will have enough resources to ensure survival into higher level with almost a 100% certainty. Getting there is the hard part.

As for wizard costs...
Did you ever heard of war wizard academies? Court wizards? Priests? Or even state church/religion? These will work for a cost, but that cost will not be that high. Again, you assume that most people in those were paying their die with gold. This is a modern mindset. If we look at how taxes were taken, most taxes were taken in live stock, labor and services. Serf and peasant rarely had anything but their labor to offer so that is how they would pay.

Our fantastic world of D&D is a wee bit to much on the modern side for taxation for my taste but services were often the main currency. Barter was almost the only possibility until the IOU were invented (well, taken from China) and even then it took a few hundred years to be relatively used with any consistency.

So, yes there are enough 5th level casters out there to cast the required spells and you seem to forget that explosive rune can be cold, fire, lightning, thunder, necrotic or even sacred or arcane as a spell rune is also possible. So the cell.woyld not be even damaged and with a con save, a thief would not get his evasive stuff to avoid the damage and the cell would still be intact. 200 gold to make sure a criminal goes to the galloes isn't that much to pay.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Yes the death toll is high, but so much as in any similar endeavor and styles. Lots of adventurer will retire around the level 5 simply because it is at these levels that you start to encounter more and more organized foes.

The gun blazing adventurer types will die quickly without any remorse as such is the life when you are an adventurer. That is why players will take side kicks to assist in their various adventures.

Most players usually get one side kick NPC or at least two side kick per groups. This way when a player dies, the side kick gets " promoted" into full fledged adventurer with the full stats of a PC. This help a lot for the continuity. This means that characters that do survive and do not retire, will rise into high levels. By the time players reach 9th level they will have enough resources to ensure survival into higher level with almost a 100% certainty. Getting there is the hard part.

Really doesn't change anything about how uncommon a level 5 spellcaster would be is 80% of 1st level characters end up dead

As for wizard costs...
Did you ever heard of war wizard academies? Court wizards? Priests? Or even state church/religion? These will work for a cost, but that cost will not be that high. Again, you assume that most people in those were paying their die with gold. This is a modern mindset. If we look at how taxes were taken, most taxes were taken in live stock, labor and services. Serf and peasant rarely had anything but their labor to offer so that is how they would pay.

Do you know who Wizard Academies and Court Wizards serve? Royal Courts and wealthy nobles. Not the local Sheriff of Mudbank. And, why would the royal court care about the village drunk tank enough to put an instant death spell on lock? Maybe, maybe the small village of Mudbank has a 5th level priest who works out of the local church, but if that's true then just in terms of scale, most towns would have much higher level preists, and the actual ranks of non-spell casting clergy would be low.

You also seem to be somewhat confused. Yes, paying your taxes in currency is new, because currency that is consistent like what is presented in DnD is rather new. But that does nothing to address the actual value of the taxes, like I laid out. Whether it is coin or services or the produce farmed by the wizard's serfs (because to even be taxed in the medieval times by the Kingdom, you had to be a landowner) the wizard's taxes would have to be massive to cover the cost of all these spells. Large enough to make this wizard one of the wealthier nobles in the kingdom.

Our fantastic world of D&D is a wee bit to much on the modern side for taxation for my taste but services were often the main currency. Barter was almost the only possibility until the IOU were invented (well, taken from China) and even then it took a few hundred years to be relatively used with any consistency.

So, yes there are enough 5th level casters out there to cast the required spells and you seem to forget that explosive rune can be cold, fire, lightning, thunder, necrotic or even sacred or arcane as a spell rune is also possible. So the cell.woyld not be even damaged and with a con save, a thief would not get his evasive stuff to avoid the damage and the cell would still be intact. 200 gold to make sure a criminal goes to the galloes isn't that much to pay.

I would love to see a rule that says poorly made stone walls are immune to different damage types. I'd also like you to read the spell.

See, the explosive part can only be done for Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, or Thunder (all of which would damage stone) and all of these are Dexterity saving throws. They don't get an option for Con.

Which means to get radiant or necrotic or force, you would need to use the Spell Glyph. Interestingly, the spell glyph requires a second casting. Meaning the price of the glyph would increase. Looking at the Wizard list, none of the spells I can find that would deal necrotic or radiant would be viable. You could do a magic missile though, so let's assume that. No save after all, and you'd probably cast it at at least 2nd level. That's likely another 50 gold, bringing our price to 550 per jail cell (I'm rounding a little bit, but it really won't matter)

If I assume that there are about 30 jail cells in the entire region, which is an insu ltingly low number, but hey everyone is executed next day, then that is between 15,000 and 16,500gp IN TAXES. Remember, the tax rate was around 10%, this means that the wizard's yearly income is between 150,000 and a 165,000 gp.

It was noted to be exceptional for a noble to sustain "20 knight's fees" which a knight fee is one or two manors and about 20 or so people. They would also have to buy the horses and armor and arms, which it should be noted were generally ancestral, because it was expensive.

Using DnD numbers, let's take 30% of this wizard's value and devote it to knight's fees. (10% is king, 10% is church, and 50% can be left for other things). That is a pool of 45,000 gp.

Maintence for a noble estate is 10gp. Platemail, shield, longsword, pike, and shortsword for equipment is 1540. Warhorse is 400, with chain barding being 200gp more.

So, this sets a DnD Knight's Fee at about 2150. If they rebuy all the armor and weapons and horses every single year. Something that was NEVER done.

That gets us 21 Knight's fees... for the 150,000 gp wizard.

Edit: Minor mistake on my part since it is late. I forgot that 30% pool for the second number. Corrected math below.

For the 165,000 gp wizard 23 Knight's fees.

And this isn't even straining the Wizard's resources, it is a mere 30% of their capital, and it covers spending more than is reasonable every single year. And the end result is that your "totally real medieval logic" ends up with this single wizard who is enchanting jail cells to kill petty thieves and street urchins, being equal to the richest and most powerful nobles of the medieval period. All so you can justify preventing a backstory of escaping from the local village jail.
 

Zubatcarteira

Now you're infected by the Musical Doodle
I think just an Arcane Lock is more reasonable to be mass cast on all cells, it's just level 2 and has cheaper components. With a normal lock, it's DC 25, which is still doable by a level 1 Rogue, especially with Expertise, but still pretty hard.

A +3 from dex and +4 from expertise, you'd need at least DC 28 to be impossible, so a lock with a base DC of 18, which the rules say a DM can make, but more expensive.
 

Remove ads

AD6_gamerati_skyscraper

Remove ads

Recent & Upcoming Releases

Top