D&D 5E The Debate of "Canon" in D&D 5E

Hussar

Legend
I love old James Bond films, at least some of them. I don't take pointers from them on how to treat women, but I also don't see Jack Nicholson in The Shining as a role model for how to be a parent and spouse. I mean, at what point do we over-extend this idea that all stories must be told in such a way that everyone behaves as they "should" according to Good Opinion, circa 2021, no matter when those stories were created?
Well, except for the fact that Jack Nicholson in the Shining is a murderous psychopath and not the hero of the story. I really don't think, even at the time, he was meant as a role model of parenting or marriage.

OTOH, Sean Connery's Bond is the hero, in all senses of the word. He's someone to be looked up to. And, good grief, even at the time, these were unbelievably racist. Who ever thought Sean Connery in blackface was a good idea? Like I said, there's the sort of low level bigotry and whatnot of the time, but, these are WAY above and beyond.
 

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Mallus

Legend
Closer to the truth would be:

Some Fans: We like vanilla.
Other Fans: We are open to new ideas.
Designers: Here are some new ideas.
Some fans: WE LIKE VANILLA!!! HOW DARE YOU GIVE US ANYTHING OTHER THAN VANILLA!!! YOU HAVE DESTROYED THE SOUL OF THIS!!!!!
Other Fans: Umm... we kinda like this new stuff.
Some Fans: YOU MUST ONLY GIVE US VANILLA!! NOTHING ELSE IS ACCEPTABLE!!! YOU MUST NEVER CHANGE ANYTHING OTHER THAN WHAT WE APPROVE OF!!

Yeah, that's not gatekeeping at all. :erm:
Some fans: I’ve probably been a fan of vanilla since before you were born!
Other fans: I’m at least 15 years older than you.
Some fans: …

A lot of my conversations about Star Trek online are like this.
 

Hussar

Legend
Little bit hyperbolic.

The proof is also in the pudding. If you piss off enough of the fans (and it's happened let's be honest) it's no surprise you're project crashes and burns.

Only a small % are probably no change whatsoever. Extreme change is guaranted to alienate most fans though so it's no surprise when a project does crash and burn.

In some cases it's perfectly predictable.
No, not hyperbolic in the least. That's what canon fans are. Gatekeepers who insist that things that they like must be carved in stone.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
No, not hyperbolic in the least. That's what canon fans are. Gatekeepers who insist that things that they like must be carved in stone.

Up to a point that's not an unreasonable belief. Consistent storytelling helps. Imagine the Tolkein estate opening the door to new material eg books.

Not saying they'll never do that but yeah it's high risk. BTW I'm not a Tolkein fan but that seems obvious.

Or using 6E. Big earning signs would be if it wasn't descended from 5E or if they drastically changed the playstyle or went full derp and made it to crunch heavy.

Without being a marketing genius that seems obvious. Yet some franchises go full derp wonder why they've alienated the fans and then insult the fans and accuse them if gatekeeping.

They also alienate the casuals as well and completely fail to attract new people as an added bonus and yet it's somehow blaming gatekeeping.

Sometimes the gate keepers are right depends on the franchise. If your products that bad it alienates everyone you can't really blame gatekeeping.
 

Mercurius

Legend
True.

I‘m certain Rian Johnson is. You couldn’t make a film like The Last Jedi without being one. But why go there? Why ponder who is or isn’t a ‘true fan’. Focus on how you feel about their work. You can’t be wrong about that.
Yes, this. The "true fan" thing seems to be an import from sportsdom, where one has fan cred depending upon how faithful they are to the team, whether or not they constantly complain about their team or are "homers" and agree with everything, no matter what.

I see a similar quality in the RPG world. There are people who complain no matter what WotC does, but also those who always find a way to cheer on WotC.
That’s fair. But show me a long-running franchise (movies, comics, gaming, whatever) where the lore doesn’t change significantly over the course of decades (and Tolkien doesn’t count!).
And not only franchises, but individual artists. Most of us here are old enough to remember the Achtung Baby kerfuffle, when U2--at the height of their popularity and just a few years after what many considered their magnum opus (Joshua Tree)--up and changed their sound drastically. We had the same dynamic play out: Many long-time fans were upset with the new "fake U2," while others applauded the rarity of an established band changing things up (I was indifferent, as I was always lukewarm on U2, but admired the fact they weren't willing to rest on their laurels and regurgitate the same old thing for cash).

We probably all have our own breaking point in terms of reaching "fanrage," though, no matter how blase. I love Tolkien--not so much that I can speak Quenya, but enough that I'd be irked if the Amazon series is Game of Thrones with pastel colors, or overly hip to modern sensibilities and mores. Such an adaptation would likely end up missing the spirit of Tolkien and the world that was his life's work. There is something almost aggressive or colonial about inverting an artistic vision like that.

Meaning, there's a difference between putting a new spin on a classic story that still honors that story, like Oh Brother Where Art Thou? did with the Odyssey or simply an updated version like Battlestar Galactica--and remaking something in a way that looses the essence and depth of the original story, like the remake of Jacob's Ladder. The former approach is more of an homage, while the latter is more exploitive.

When it comes to D&D, there's a lot more room to play with than a film or book, due to the dynamic nature of the game. But I think it is still possible to depart too far from the "essence" of the game, which I think has to do with adventure and imagination. If D&D became a game centered on family pathos or overly reliant upon technology, thereby bankrupting the imaginative element, then I think it would be heading in the "wrong" direction and by "D&D" in name only.

Meaning, no matter how dynamic and malleable a property, there are still intrinsic, even essential qualities that, if excised, end up taking the soul with it.
 

Mercurius

Legend
Well, except for the fact that Jack Nicholson in the Shining is a murderous psychopath and not the hero of the story. I really don't think, even at the time, he was meant as a role model of parenting or marriage.

OTOH, Sean Connery's Bond is the hero, in all senses of the word. He's someone to be looked up to. And, good grief, even at the time, these were unbelievably racist. Who ever thought Sean Connery in blackface was a good idea? Like I said, there's the sort of low level bigotry and whatnot of the time, but, these are WAY above and beyond.
And? What do you want to do with that, beyond just expressing outrage? Or to put it more bluntly, so what? What to do with Sean Connery's Bond beyond express what you want to express about these films that were made 50-60 years ago, choose whether to re-watch the films or not, and move on?
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Yes, this. The "true fan" thing seems to be an import from sportsdom, where one has fan cred depending upon how faithful they are to the team, whether or not they constantly complain about their team or are "homers" and agree with everything, no matter what.

I see a similar quality in the RPG world. There are people who complain no matter what WotC does, but also those who always find a way to cheer on WotC.

And not only franchises, but individual artists. Most of us here are old enough to remember the Achtung Baby kerfuffle, when U2--at the height of their popularity and just a few years after what many considered their magnum opus (Joshua Tree)--up and changed their sound drastically. We had the same dynamic play out: Many long-time fans were upset with the new "fake U2," while others applauded the rarity of an established band changing things up (I was indifferent, as I was always lukewarm on U2, but admired the fact they weren't willing to rest on their laurels and regurgitate the same old thing for cash).

We probably all have our own breaking point in terms of reaching "fanrage," though, no matter how blase. I love Tolkien--not so much that I can speak Quenya, but enough that I'd be irked if the Amazon series is Game of Thrones with pastel colors, or overly hip to modern sensibilities and mores. Such an adaptation would likely end up missing the spirit of Tolkien and the world that was his life's work. There is something almost aggressive or colonial about inverting an artistic vision like that.

Meaning, there's a difference between putting a new spin on a classic story that still honors that story, like Oh Brother Where Art Thou? did with the Odyssey or simply an updated version like Battlestar Galactica--and remaking something in a way that looses the essence and depth of the original story, like the remake of Jacob's Ladder. The former approach is more of an homage, while the latter is more exploitive.

When it comes to D&D, there's a lot more room to play with than a film or book, due to the dynamic nature of the game. But I think it is still possible to depart too far from the "essence" of the game, which I think has to do with adventure and imagination. If D&D became a game centered on family pathos or overly reliant upon technology, thereby bankrupting the imaginative element, then I think it would be heading in the "wrong" direction and by "D&D" in name only.

Meaning, no matter how dynamic and malleable a property, there are still intrinsic, even essential qualities that, if excised, end up taking the soul with it.

Isn't Achtung Baby seen as one of the better albums these days?

1980-93 they were on fire imho even if some of the albums weren't perfect. Was an amazing run over 13 years and look how many groups flame out in less than 5.

Wobbles started 1997 and kind of fell apart with How to Dismantle Atomic Bomb.
 

Hussar

Legend
Or using 6E. Big earning signs would be if it wasn't descended from 5E or if they drastically changed the playstyle or went full derp and made it to crunch heavy.
You mean like they did with 3e, heralded as the savior of D&D? Or the new Amazon Tolkien series that's coming out shortly?

3e is FAR more crunch heavy than 2e or 1e and is generally regarded as one of the best versions of D&D, and certainly a massive improvement on 2e. :D

Hindsight may be 20/20, but, I really don't think it's quite as easy as you believe to determine whether or not something will be successful.
 

Hussar

Legend
And? What do you want to do with that, beyond just expressing outrage? Or to put it more bluntly, so what? What to do with Sean Connery's Bond beyond express what you want to express about these films that were made 50-60 years ago, choose whether to re-watch the films or not, and move on?
Sean Connery's Bond is held up as something to aspire to. He's the good guy. He still is held up as a good guy. If we were insisting on "canon" the way some folks do, he'd be seen in far, far different light. Yet, heck, we're seeing all sorts of resistance to later era Bonds specifically because of the differences to earlier Bonds.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
You mean like they did with 3e, heralded as the savior of D&D? Or the new Amazon Tolkien series that's coming out shortly?

3e is FAR more crunch heavy than 2e or 1e and is generally regarded as one of the best versions of D&D, and certainly a massive improvement on 2e. :D

Hindsight may be 20/20, but, I really don't think it's quite as easy as you believe to determine whether or not something will be successful.

3E was no big surprise when you look at late 2E.

Right here right now though I suspect the playerbase wouldn't want a super crunchy D&D and evolution not revolution.

If 6E is to different to 5E the risk of it being rejected increases significantly. More attention to role playing seems to be the direction it's heading.
 

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